Act of War

POSTED BY: Hero
UPDATED: Friday, May 9, 2025 18:56
VIEWED: 7198
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CAUSAL

Friday, July 7, 2006 12:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by StillFlyin:
Such action would strip all credibility we have with the International Community.

We've got some left? That's amazing!

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

AURAPTOR

Friday, July 7, 2006 2:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
St Doubt- couldn't have said it better. Hero and Auraptor (and AJ and Finn for that matter) need to grow a pair.

One of the things that the so-called conservatives have always campaigned for is a Wild West kind of justice- everyone packing a piece. Now we're approaching exactly that scenario on an international scale and it scares them sh*tless. And do you know what the N Koreans want? To sit down and talk with just the USA.

We really DO need a rolleyes emoticon!

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Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

Exactly what the hell is your issue, Sig? ( btw, my pair are quite sufficent, thank you very much ) All I did was talk about facts, and that seems to set you off. If you can show where I'm wrong, have at it, but I fail to see any legitimate need for ad hominems. All I said was that there is no formal agreement that ended the war, and that is exactly why we still have so many troops in S.Korea. My stating the facts is NOT the same as me hoping for, promoting or in any way supporting a war w/ N.Korea.

But lets be perfectly clear. N.Korea is the antagonist here, first and last. Under Clinton's administration, we DID deal w/ this little pot bellied tyrant, and it all turned out very bad. In fact, that's exactly how we got to the state we're at now! He's not going to get a 1 to 1 meeting w/ the US, and he's certainly NOT going to win friends by launching missles over Japan or Hawaii or anywhere else. It simply isn't going to happen. U.N. Ambassador John Bolton put it best, stating that launching missles isn't the way to go about getting what he wants.

So Sig, either deal w/ the facts, show me where I made errors in my comments, or go concern yourself w/ someone else's pair. Leave mine alone!

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

HERO

Friday, July 7, 2006 3:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
And do you know what the N Koreans want? To sit down and talk with just the USA.

Thats your first mistake. If you think that what the North Koreans want is to sit down with us, then your as big an idiot as Carter or those fools who thought Hitler could be appeased.

Sitting down with the USA for talks is a means to an end, just like this missile business. North Korea's goal is to turn American public opinion against defending South Korea. They do that by developing nuclear weapons and missiles capable of hitting the west coast. This raises the very real question of would America trade Seattle or Portland for Seoul? When that answer becomes a reasonable certain 'probably not' then North Korea will invade expecting little of no American intervention. Conquest of South Korea is North Korea's goal. Everything they are doing is a means to that end.

H

HERO

Friday, July 7, 2006 3:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by STDOUBT:
Grow a nutsack Hero. People in the US have turnedinto little freaking girls ever since 9/11 and I'msick of it. N. Korea a threat? pfft. A PITA sure,but really man -stop your quivering. And while I'msure the thought of carpet bombing 100s of 1000s ofstarving civilians don't trouble your conscience,let me just say this: you're scared. You stink of fear. "Fear is the mind-killer" was a brilliant scrap of literature.

From reading the article, it sounds like our Gov.
is on top of the situation. Not that I have a lot
of faith in our Gov., but if N. Korea is ever
successful in torching any part of our territory
it's our Gov. you should want to be carpet bombing.

Wow, you manage to advocate a 'do nothing' strategy and then promise to blame the President if your 'do nothing' strategy fails.

Liberalism can't defend this country because of crazy notions like yours. They advocate doing as little as possible, then blame the conservatives when we get attacked. Thats why 9/11 was George Bush's fault because of this country's abuse of its position as world power and Bush's failure to act on intellegence in the few days he was in office before the attack happened...they'd prefer no mention of the terrorists, after all what have they got to do with the attack? This missile attack is the same way. Its GWB's spending too much on the missile shield, or not spending enough, or not talking, or not listening, or not giving in to the demands of the others, or giving in too much...that Little Kim pushed a red button and launched what could have been a nuclear missile at Hawaii is not relevant to the blaming of President Bush for everything they can possibly think of and a few things they just make up hoping nobody notices.

As for the starving children...how many could North Korea have fed if they'd bought some Honey Nut Cheerios instead of a long range missile, or developed deep dish pizza technology rather then a nuclear bomb? I suggest that liberating North Korea will improve the lives of North Koreans...just like it did for the Japanese, South Koreans, Phillipinos, Hong Kongers (before the became ChiCom slaves), Taiwanitites, Okinawi and all the other free peoples of the Pacific rim (I doubt any of them would now trade their freedom and prosperity for being sparred the ravages of past wars).

H

RUE

Friday, July 7, 2006 5:06 PM

Zero, Unwrapped et al - geez folks. I screened the threads from Jan 1 2006 on. The biggest trolls are YOU TWO. Get a life.

SIGNYM

Friday, July 7, 2006 5:08 PM

Quote:
Sitting down with the USA for talks is a means to an end, just like this missile business. North Korea's goal is to turn American public opinion against defending South Korea. They do that by developing nuclear weapons and missiles capable of hitting the west coast. This raises the very real question of would America trade Seattle or Portland for Seoul?

The only way this works is if we're scared sh*tless. You know, I've lived for a VERY long time with the thought that many people around the world really hate us and that they actually have means to do something about it. NEWS FLASH- IT'S NOT NEWS. There are research reactors up and down the West Coast in or near highly populated cities that would make great targets. Dirty bombs, anthrax (and BTW we have still not figured out who made such highly weaponized anthrax), smallpox, shoe bombs, long-range missiles, even hijacked planes... And then the San Andreas fault might just decide to rip a big one and do far more damage and kill many more people than lil' Kim ever dreamed. You can't live in fear forever. I have water and water purification equipment, dried food, and KI in my kit. I have a backpack in my car and walking clothes. If I need to hike home and get my kid, I will. I also have a shotgun, a bottle of booze and a lethal dose of tranquilizers. I'm set for whatever comes.

This is what we shoud do: Consult with the interested parties to make sure they agree with our position ahead of time. Then (assuming agreement is reached) we negotiate with the N Koreans, and sitting across the table from them (just like they want) we tell them:

You fire another long-range missile and we will starve you out. You LAND a long-range missile on anyone's territory - with a payload or not- and we will burn your nation from top to bottom and no one will defend you. OTOH- you play nice and allow instrusive inspections and we will let Kim be a movie producer in Hollywood.

All I'm saying is- negotiation can mean a lot of things.

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

EXODUS

Friday, July 7, 2006 5:14 PM

Kim Jong-Il is just provoking the USA. He should be very fearful considering the USA can kick his country's ass in many different ways. Just because he has a couple of nukes doesn't mean he is strong. I would like to see those nukes get through NORAD.

RUE

Friday, July 7, 2006 5:35 PM

So anyway, to get to the topic at hand.

The Japanese say the missile was aimed at Hawaii. The US said it failed too early in flight to calculate a trajectory. Who do YOU believe ?? It's not like the administration would ever lie about something like that. OTOH, without any kind of backup info (how did the Japanese figure out the target anyway ?) it makes their claims sound like exaggerated guesses at best....

The person I know programs the missile defense targeting system. If he says it couldn't, then, as certain as one can be about anything in life, it couldn't.

Back in Clinton's day, the N Korean nuclear facilities were decommissioned, sealed, and under constant realtime TV monitoring. Bush got the US into this situation. Anyone who claims other wise is an idiot or a liar. :rollseyes:

So what are possible solutions?

On the military side, unilaterally striking N Korea would antagonize China and Russia. Does the US really need to pick a fight with a brat whose mommy and daddy each could beat it to a pulp? (US leverage over either country alone or both together is non-existent, and they have leverage over the US. China owns the US through debt, and Russia has oil plus potential control over nearby oil. They BOTH have ways around the missile defense system which has to so with actively altering the trajectory to evade targeting calculation.)

The US really has no choice but to go through the UN multilaterally (that US tries so hard to go around at all costs), or to talk with N Korea.

SignyM makes a lot of sense.

GEEZER

Friday, July 7, 2006 5:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
This is what we should do: Consult with the interested parties to make sure they agree with our position ahead of time. Then (assuming agreement is reached)...

Ain't going to happen. China has to be one of the interested parties, since they share a border with North Korea. They will not agree to apply ANY sactions in the current situation, and would hardly be likely to support anything as harsh as you recommend below. I doubt Russia would, either. I'll discuss why South Korea wouldn't agree to it below.

Quote:
...we negotiate with the N Koreans, and sitting across the table from them (just like they want)

Attempting to negotiate with North Korea makes herding rabid cats look simple. Generally, they present a list of unreasonable pre-conditions which must be met before they will even consent to begin negotiations. If we refuse to honor them, they blame us for obstructing the process. If we give in, they continue to add conditions, never giving up anything themselves. Try finding anything of substance which has successfully been negotiated with North Korea.

Quote:
we tell them:

You fire another long-range missile and we will starve you out.

Aside from the fact that the North Korean government will see that its Army and party won't go hungry and don't really care if a few million peasants starve, remember that there are a lot of those North Korean peasants who have relatives in the South. The South Koreans would never approve of starving their kinsmen to death as a tactic.

Quote:
You LAND a long-range missile on anyone's territory - with a payload or not- and we will burn your nation from top to bottom and no one will defend you.

This equals war with China. You'd never get them to agree to stay out. You up for that?

Quote:
All I'm saying is- negotiation can mean a lot of things.

In this case it would mean that North Korea doesn't have to negotiate in good faith, because no one expects it of them, while we do, or everyone goes off on us again. Sort of a lose-lose for us.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

HARDWARE

Friday, July 7, 2006 6:06 PM

You know, we didn't go to war with Japan because they tried to bomb pearl harbor. I know, technically we are still at war with North Korea, but we were involved in a UN action against North Korea, not gung ho on our own. In order to reinstate open hostilities we'd need a UN sanction. Frankly, the continued border bull$hit along the Korean DMZ constitutes a better excuse than the North Korean stooges trying to cobble together a POS ICBM.

Not to mention the fact that we are committed up to our ass in Iraq and Afghanistan and have NO resources with which to fight another military action against NK.

I vote we get together a battalion of sabre-rattling chairborne rangers led by Hero and Auraptor and drop them in North Korea if they're so eager to start another war.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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