Hey! The system works yet again!

POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Thursday, July 6, 2006 13:49
VIEWED: 3845
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SIGNYM

Friday, June 30, 2006 7:36 PM

Geezer, the main misunderdstanding as I see it is that you tend to think of "the government" as "the system". When pushed, you eventually get around to including direct citizen involvement in its various forms but for the most part your first reponse is to bark out "Quitcher bellyaching!" and leave it up to the courts, the President and the other politicians to work things out.

I think bitching, whining, protesting, calling up the folks in DC, voting, buying ad time, videotaping, leaking, writing to the editor, blogging, donating to various interest groups, filing suit, civil disobedience, and even occasionally throwing rocks works great.

The government? Not so much. If the government worked so well, we wouldn't need to do all of the above.

And I noticed that you very quietly tried to slide out from under your statements about not whining and complaining, and threw mud at Rue when she called you on it. Not very gentlemanly or very honest either, if you ask me.

But I think I know why you get your hackles up about people who criticize "the government". Assuming that you're not an inverterate Bushite (like Unwrapped and Zero, for whom Bush can do no wrong) I think you're concerned that democracy might be destroyed by too much criticism. If you take the view that democracy is a government and not a process, I can see how you might worry about it's fragility. Me- I see it as a process. In my view the only thing that can kill democracy is complacency.

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

RUE

Friday, June 30, 2006 7:42 PM

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the system'.

GEEZER

Friday, June 30, 2006 7:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
My idea of it is what we would have, right here, right now, if MONEY didn't dictate who wins court cases, gets medical attention, or becomes President. Laws to even the playing field sos a man with good ideas wouldn't be grossly overshadowed by a man w/connections and money but not a neuron to his name would be a fine start. A pool of lawyers chosen at random to prosecute or defend..healthcare payed by our taxes (which would be somewhat higher-okay), influence peddeling punishable by DEATH...

Little things like that...The Constitution's fine as it is.

Not just MONEY. Prejudice, social connections, preconceptions. All of these sometimes have effects on not only the judicial, but the electorial process. China and Vietnam are having big squabbles about government corruption right now, so it's not just a democracy thing.

If you have a workable method of keeping folk with lots of money from having a disproportionate voice in politics, I would truly love to hear it. Massive abridgement of 1st Amendment rights and capital punishment porbably wouldn't pass a Constitutionality test, though.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Friday, June 30, 2006 8:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I'm not sure what you mean by 'the system'.

As in "...the American system of government"?

Pretty much that stuff you learned in Civics class. Constitution and Bill of Rights. Separation of Powers. Three Branches of Government. Representative Democracy.

Plus a general knowledge as to how it's worked out over the past 200 or so years.

Also consideration of the country it is used in; a nation of almost 300 million people, very few of whom have the same opinion about everything -spread over a landmass larger than Europe - with a population at least as diverse as any other country on earth.

Does that system - that form of government - work for you?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Friday, June 30, 2006 8:15 PM

Geezer, you and I are to close to agreement on this to argue...

Chrisisall

RUE

Friday, June 30, 2006 8:34 PM

I was wondering if you meant the judicial system, the US structure, or democracy in general.

No, I don't think the US system works.

From the beginning to now, it has disproportionately represented the wealthy and their interests. When the Supreme Court gave corporations personhood, http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=129&invo
l=26 wealthy corporations also became super-citizens. The general populace and the common interests (the commons) are third tier or lower in the scheme of representation.

SIGNYM

Friday, June 30, 2006 8:40 PM

I agree with Rue. The USA system was a great first draft, but it's too easily corrupted.

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

GEEZER

Friday, June 30, 2006 10:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I was wondering if you meant the judicial system, the US structure, or democracy in general.

No, I don't think the US system works.

I would have to disagree, but that's been pretty obvious for a while now. So let's take it as read, and move on to the next question.

You propose that the American system of government does not work. What are your alternatives? SignyM, since you agree with Rue, please feel free to propose your alternatives as well. A potentially doable description of how we can get from here to there would also be nice.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Friday, June 30, 2006 11:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Geezer, you and I are to close to agreement on this to argue...

Chrisisall

I really don't want to argue about this either...but I'm willing to discuss. I will do my best to be good, which doesn't mean I won't disagree, but at least will try to phrase my arguments in a logical manner.

Any attainable suggestions for improvement of the US government (overall, not just "get rid of whoever") will be greatly appreciated.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

RUE

Friday, June 30, 2006 11:21 PM

In no particular order:

1) eliminate corporate 'personhood'
2) institute a parliamentary system
3) use only public funding for campaigns
4) have election reform (use the Canadian system)
5) have several foreign news media covering the US and have them be carried on public airwaves during prime time

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