Where does Firefly take place?

POSTED BY: Hans
UPDATED: Sunday, July 2, 2006 05:23
VIEWED: 62435
PAGE 9 of 18

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Originally posted by zeke023
Actually, thinking on the points you brought up - this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I am reminded of several episodes where they make reference to fuel and being short on it. A FTL drive would probably run off of a reactor and not need to be refueled but once a year or less - that being said, the writers may not know that (As I said above) and therefore could be a pointless fact. Still, it's a vote for non-FTL travel.

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Yes, it does. See that pretty color stuff that flies out the sides and back of the tail when the firefly transports "go really fast" in space? That's where it's spewing out fusion material in order to boost itself to "really fast". That's why it's also "really bad" to do in an atmosphere, as you can see in Serenity. You're dumping fusion material, which wouldn't be so bad in space, but give it something it can react with like a breathable atmosphere and you get all kinds of fun chain reactions. It amounts to popping a little sun out the back long enough to hurl you at the speed you need. Without the gravity of a sun to keep the expansion in check, you get that kick.

Since you're dumping fuel for that kick, you're going to run out.

It's definitely a reactor, because they say ships run on reactors in the series, including mentioning the reactor of the TransU thingy the reavers were using in Serenity. It's definitely fusion, because Joss says so on the DVD.

Sheesh.

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no as for new stuff... in serenity the ship passes the reaver vessel at slow relative speeds - which seems to indicate that serenity was NOT in FTL drive on the way to the rim from persephone.

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Another thing on the DVD, he says this was a blunder, but done for dramatic purposes. Yes, they should be going really, really, really fast - but that wouldn't be very exciting. Just pretend they slowed down to check each other out.

Sheesh again.

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http://www.thespacesite.com/space/future/fusion.php

A pretty complete description, in layman's terms, of fusion drive.

I like this one better, though:

http://www.thespacesite.com/space/future/fission.php#frag

As to the galaxy vs. solar system debate, I tend towards the single system. If the star is a blue giant or supergiant, you get a rather large habitable zone, and if you have a bunch of gas giants with several moons each, you can terraform the "over 70 earths" Mal mentions. Maybe a few rocky planets further in as well.

To add to the evidence:

One of the Blue Hand Men at the end of The Train Job says "We didn't come 86 million miles to investigate the theft of some band-aids" or some such. He says it as if it's something of an inconvenience to travel less than 1 AU. Based on the fact that the theft was still fresh in the Alliance officer's mind, however, I'd say that the trip took no more than a few hours.

Early: You ever been raped, Kaylee?
Kaylee: You know, it's funny you should mention that... ever heard of the Fox network?

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Haplo721:
To add to the evidence:

One of the Blue Hand Men at the end of The Train Job says "We didn't come 86 million miles to investigate the theft of some band-aids" or some such. He says it as if it's something of an inconvenience to travel less than 1 AU. Based on the fact that the theft was still fresh in the Alliance officer's mind, however, I'd say that the trip took no more than a few hours.

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That's it? That's your BIG EVIDENCE? Gosh, that's so much more convincing than the whole "Galaxy of new Earths" line, isn't it?

Some people, especially important people, will often feel inconvenienced to travel across town. You could easily put that in a modern situation and change "86 million miles" to "across town". Most likely, the writer just wanted a number that sounded really big to the audience and didn't actually bother looking up how big that number should be. This happens all the time in sci-fi, especially in those offshoots where the science isn't the focus like it's not in Firefly.

It's a galaxy, the whole galaxy. A big solar system is just plain silly and doesn't fit anything about the show. Why bother unifying everything or even fighting unification if you could just hop to the next solar system. After all, they did that to get away from Earth when it was all used up, didn't they? I don't think there's anyone out there who would argue that Firefly takes place in our solar system, so everyone agreed that these people are capable of interstellar travel, right?

They make references to "Core Worlds" and "Rim Worlds". You don't think those mean the core of the habitation zone or the rim of it, do you? Most likely, they mean galactic core and galactic rim. Rim and core are terms to describe galaxies, not solar systems.

The War of Unification wouldn't have taken very long at all if they were fighting it out on moons of gas giants. You get a foothold on one with your big Alliance army, and that's all you'd need to squish the less advanced, less populated independents. There has to be a good to great deal of distance for them to have make it a fight.

Also, I doubt Patience would be so cavalier about the Alliance and owning half of the world she's on if she was travelling in near the same planetary orbital field as all of the Alliance worlds. She has to have a pretty good deal of distance between her and where they actually care about.

Then there's the reavers, who are men who supposedly go mad on the edge of space. Notice that this edge of space just so happens to have planets in it, planets with people on them. We know this because they attack borderworlds. Think this kind of thing could exist with the habitable zone stuff? Eh? That would put reavers right on top of the Alliance people, since that zone is fairly narrow for people who have been able to do interstellar flight. If the reavers were on the edge of this HZ, then the Alliance would be well versed on them, which they're obviously not as seen in Bushwacked.

Then there's the whole bit about there being no alien life in the galaxy, which is mentioned several times through the run of the show. They'd be hard pressed to make the case that there weren't any aliens at all in the galaxy when they've only been to two or slightly more solar systems, don't you think? Even Mal seems to buy this idea that there are no aliens, something which could be widely debated if people hadn't been all over the galaxy.

And about Niska, of course Mal had to go near him. Otherwise, there'd be no episode, would there? Niska doesn't really move off that station, and Mal goes everywhere. Just because he went to where the buyers for the medicines were doesn't mean that's not avoiding him, either. After all, he did it on the far side of the planet from Niska's station, as opposed to doing it on Niska's station. If you can avoid someone in your own town or even section of town, I think you can easily say that the far side of a planet is avoiding them.

About the sectors thing, if we're

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Chill, dude. It doesn't really matter. There's evidence for both theories, and when you come right down to it, the only thing that matters is that the stories work.

Early: You ever been raped, Kaylee?
Kaylee: You know, it's funny you should mention that... ever heard of the Fox network?

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Well, there's this:

I can believe that FTL will someday be invented. I can accept that for the sake of an SF tee-vee show. I actually find that easier to believe than fake gravity on Serenity, but that's me. Thus, I can believe that Firefly involves many solar systems.

I cannot believe that, in the future, it will be possible to have dozens of planets in a single solar system all within a life zone that seems to give at least part of nearly every one of them a California climate.

And even then, it would take fantastic leaps in propulsion (though not FTL) to put even planets in the same solar system days or hours apart, so the one-system hypothesis STILL requires you to accept really, really fast space ships. Since you're makin' that leap anyway, why not give up, accept FTL, and have a handful of probably clustered star systems.


"Bang."

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Here's my more or less complete rundown of the evidence for one system. Proponents of other theories, feel free to do the same for yours, or maybe I'll do it myself later. Either way, this is not an attack on your beliefs. We're all Browncoats here and this discussion is academic anyway.

From "Serenity":

"DOBSON
I hear a lot of the border moons are
in bad shape. Plagues, and famine...

ZOE
Well, some of that's exaggerated, and
some of it ain't. All those moons --
just like the central planets,
they're as close to Earth-That-Was as
we could make 'em: gravity, atmosphere,
and such, but... "

Note that it's "border moons" rather than "border planets". This could mean that the only true planets that have been settled are further in, while the folks on the rim live mostly on the moons of gas giants.


"DOBSON
(pointing the gun at
Mal again)
Get the hell away from that weapon!
You think I'm a complete backbirth?
You're carrying a fugitive across
interplanetary borders, and you
think I actually believe you're
bringing medical supplies to
Whitefall? As far as I care,
everyone on this ship is culpable."

Note that it's "interplanetary borders" rather than "interstellar borders". Sounds like each planet with all its moons comprises a legal jurisdiction, making this equivalent to transporting a fugitive across state lines in the modern USA.

From "The Train Job":

"BOOK
Gave up everything to free his sister from that
place. Go from being a doctor on the Central Planets to hiding on the fringes of the system. There's not many would do that."

"THE system", not "the galaxy or" "A system".

"ENSIGN
All network alert. Cargo theft. Medical shipment
lifted off a train in the Georgia System en route
to Paradiso."

Compare the following:

"Medical shipment lifted off a train in the Sol system en route to Sacramento."

"Medical shipment lifted off a train in California en route to Sacramento."

Which makes more sense?


"OTHER MAN
We didn't fly 86 million miles to track down
a box of bandaids, Colonel."

From "Our Mrs. Reynolds" (deleted scene):

"MAL

More than 70 little Earths spinnin' around this (galaxy/system), and the meek have inherited not a one."

Can't remember if he says galaxy or system, and the TV's in use right now. However, if he's referring to a literal galaxy, 70 inhabited worlds sounds pretty low. On the other hand, if you have a system like Castor 6, consisting of 3 binary pairs, you'll have plenty of room for that many planets/moons. Consider that Jupiter has something like 16 moons all by itself...

We also have Joss's comment in "Serenity: the Tenth Character" that the ship is propelled by "a fusion explosion". Basically, you're setting off a nuclear reaction behind the ship to propel it. Ain't no way that's gonna push you past lightspeed.

Early: You ever been raped, Kaylee?
Kaylee: You know, it's funny you should mention that... ever heard of the Fox network?

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Haplo721:
Note that it's "border moons" rather than "border planets". This could mean that the only true planets that have been settled are further in, while the folks on the rim live mostly on the moons of gas giants.

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Could mean, but why would it mean if they were all living in the same solar system. We're talking about people who have accomplished interstellar travel. Even if you're doing the generational ship thing, which is dubious considering you'd have to move all of Earth to a new solar system in a bunch of huge ass ships. Now, if you have FTL, you can move them off a bit at a time, making trips. Which makes more sense?

But back to what you said. They also use the term rim for these worlds, as in on the edge of the galaxy. Ferrying stuff to and from a moon in even the largest solar system would be a nothing task for people who've done instellar travel. After all, there's no star out there big enough to have dozens of light years of gravitational pull, and that's what a solar system requires to work. It's also the distance between Earth and anything big enough to actually be this fabled super solar system.

Quote:

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"DOBSON
(pointing the gun at
Mal again)
Get the hell away from that weapon!
You think I'm a complete backbirth?
You're carrying a fugitive across
interplanetary borders, and you
think I actually believe you're
bringing medical supplies to
Whitefall? As far as I care,
everyone on this ship is culpable."

Note that it's "interplanetary borders" rather than "interstellar borders". Sounds like each planet with all its moons comprises a legal jurisdiction, making this equivalent to transporting a fugitive across state lines in the modern USA.

---

How exactly does this support your idea? Planets have a degree of local automony. This could be of any size, anywhere. Likewise, in the United States, we also have county borders. You cross so many counties, and it becomes a matter for the state police, rather than a county agency. We don't know Dobson's jurisdiction, do we? He could very well be a sector cop, like the ones seen in The Message.

Quote:

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From "The Train Job":

"BOOK
Gave up everything to free his sister from that
place. Go from being a doctor on the Central Planets to hiding on the fringes of the system. There's not many would do that."

"THE system", not "the galaxy or" "A system".

---

System can also mean the governing body, i.e. the Alliance. Note he doesn't say the solar system.

Quote:

---

"ENSIGN
All network alert. Cargo theft. Medical shipment
lifted off a train in the Georgia System en route
to Paradiso."

Compare the following:

"Medical shipment lifted off a train in the Sol system en route to Sacramento."

"Medical shipment lifted off a train in California en route to Sacramento."

Which makes more sense?

---

Why say, Georgia System if there weren't other solar systems?

Quote:

---

"OTHER MAN
We didn't fly 86 million miles to track down
a box of bandaids, Colonel."

---

Already been covered.

Quote:

---

From "Our Mrs. Reynolds" (deleted scene):

"MAL

More than 70 little Earths spinnin' around this (galaxy/system), and the meek have inherited not a one."

Can't remember if he says galaxy or system, and the TV's in use right now. However, if he's referring to a literal galaxy, 70 inhabited worlds sounds pretty low. On the other hand, if you have a system like Castor 6, consisting of 3 binary pairs, you'll have plenty of room for that many planets/moons. Consider that Jupiter has something like 16 moons all by itself...

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Depends on when they got started, doesn't it? We already know they're still doing the terraforming and settling of planets. They're still moving settlers around. Not to mention the fact it's a lot easier to find habitable(terraformable) planets in a variety of solar systems as opposed to finding one solar system with enough planetary bodies to have 70 ter

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Hmmmm... I think that's the problem - that is,
if you ignore that 'relativity' stuff. Lorenz's
equations specifies that the mass of an object
traveling close to light speed becomes close
to infinite. Specifically, the faster an object
travels an near light speed, the more massive
it becomes and the larger the force required
to accelerate it. This is the reason why almost
every single SciFi show out there uses 'space-folding' type technology to travel 'faster
than light'. You can't physically accelerate
an object that has a rest mass anywhere close
to the speed of light, but if you fold up space,
then you have a short cut and create the 'appearance' of faster than light travel.

Happy New Year!

Quote:

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Originally posted by SaintProverbius:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Haplo721:
Note that it's "border moons" rather than "border planets". This could mean that the only true planets that have been settled are further in, while the folks on the rim live mostly on the moons of gas giants.

---

Could mean, but why would it mean if they were all living in the same solar system. We're talking about people who have accomplished interstellar travel. Even if you're doing the generational ship thing, which is dubious considering you'd have to move all of Earth to a new solar system in a bunch of huge ass ships. Now, if you have FTL, you can move them off a bit at a time, making trips. Which makes more sense?

But back to what you said. They also use the term rim for these worlds, as in on the edge of the galaxy. Ferrying stuff to and from a moon in even the largest solar system would be a nothing task for people who've done instellar travel. After all, there's no star out there big enough to have dozens of light years of gravitational pull, and that's what a solar system requires to work. It's also the distance between Earth and anything big enough to actually be this fabled super solar system.

Quote:

---

"DOBSON
(pointing the gun at
Mal again)
Get the hell away from that weapon!
You think I'm a complete backbirth?
You're carrying a fugitive across
interplanetary borders, and you
think I actually believe you're
bringing medical supplies to
Whitefall? As far as I care,
everyone on this ship is culpable."

Note that it's "interplanetary borders" rather than "interstellar borders". Sounds like each planet with all its moons comprises a legal jurisdiction, making this equivalent to transporting a fugitive across state lines in the modern USA.

---

How exactly does this support your idea? Planets have a degree of local automony. This could be of any size, anywhere. Likewise, in the United States, we also have county borders. You cross so many counties, and it becomes a matter for the state police, rather than a county agency. We don't know Dobson's jurisdiction, do we? He could very well be a sector cop, like the ones seen in The Message.

Quote:

---

From "The Train Job":

"BOOK
Gave up everything to free his sister from that
place. Go from being a doctor on the Central Planets to hiding on the fringes of the system. There's not many would do that."

"THE system", not "the galaxy or" "A system".

---

System can also mean the governing body, i.e. the Alliance. Note he doesn't say the solar system.

Quote:

---

"ENSIGN
All network alert. Cargo theft. Medical shipment
lifted off a train in the Georgia System en route
to Paradiso."

Compare the following:

"Medical shipment lifted off a train in the Sol system en route to Sacramento."

"Medical shipment lifted off a train in California en route to Sacramento."

Which makes more sense?

---

Why say, Georgia System if there weren't other solar systems?

Quote:

---

"OTHER MAN
We didn't fly 86 million miles to track down
a box of bandaids, Colonel."

---

Already been covered.

Quote:

---

From "Our Mrs. Reynolds" (deleted scene):

"MAL

More than 70 little Earths spinnin' around this (galaxy/system), and the mee

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