Did Bush lie? It doesn't matter any more.

POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 11, 2023 18:35
VIEWED: 11007
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RUE

Saturday, August 28, 2004 5:36 PM

Just a quick response:
Constitutionally, the number of representatives (but not the vote) was assigned by accounting the number of free persons and 3/5 of everyone else. The president was and is still chosen by the Electoral College, not by direct popular vote. The states did and do decide the electors in 'a manner of their choosing'. (States restricted voting to free landholding males, and that gave rise to later state mischief in denying the vote.) The US had slavery until the Emancipation Proclamation of 1863, which took effect when the north won the Civil war and the 13th ammendment was ratified in 1865. Article 14 (1868) specifically protected the vote of MALES over the age of 21 by providing a representational penalty for states that abridged voting rights. States actively denied former slaves (and 'negroes' in general) the right to vote, so the 15th amendment was created (It reads: Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude. Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.) So states set up poll /property tax restrictions, which effectively disenfranchised blacks for nearly 100 yrs. The US Supreme Court decided in favor of 'Separate but Equal" Plessy v Ferguson 1896, essentially establishing apartheid in the US. Women did not get the right to vote until 1920. And separate but equal state-mandated apartheid over was overturned only recently as 1954 Brown v Topeka Board. The poll/property tax restriction on black voters wasn't addressed until the 24th amendment of 1964.
In your opinion, when did the United Sates become a democracy?

GEEZER

Sunday, August 29, 2004 10:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
In your opinion, when did the United Sates become a democracy?

Good question. When does the number or percentage of citizens eligible to vote reach that "critical mass" that makes a democracy?

Or is it more what they are able to do with the vote? If the population, through their vote, can remove the head of government or change the direction of policy, even though the franchise is limited to less than 1/2 the population, could that be considered a democracy?

Recall that in the former USSR and present day North Korea, everyone could vote, in fact were required to vote. But since their vote could not affect policy or who made it in the slightest, I'd hesitate to call them democracies.

So what's the tipping point that a system crosses that leads it to expand suffrage and the power of the voter and head toward democracy? When do they cross the line and become one?

Looks like time to do some more research, after I finish G,G,& S. Thanks for the impetus. This should be interesting.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

RUE

Tuesday, August 31, 2004 2:39 AM

Don't forget the electoral college thing. Not only do people not directly vote for the president and vp, they don't indirectly vote for them. They don't vote for the people who will be selecting the executive branch. The electoral college is chosen in arcane and secretive ways, it doesn't have to follow the popular vote, and it's run by rules citizens haven't directly voted on - in other words, it's not under citizen control
A weighting of the popular vote toward less populous states might be beneficial, but the electoral college goes far beyond that. It removes the real power of the vote from citizens. In other words, the popular vote is merely ceremonial. Is that democratic?

SUCCATASH

Tuesday, August 31, 2004 3:25 AM

This is a very informative thread. I wish Bush and Kerry would talk and debate like this.

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

GEEZER

Tuesday, August 31, 2004 11:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Don't forget the electoral college thing. Not only do people not directly vote for the president and vp, they don't indirectly vote for them. They don't vote for the people who will be selecting the executive branch. The electoral college is chosen in arcane and secretive ways, it doesn't have to follow the popular vote, and it's run by rules citizens haven't directly voted on - in other words, it's not under citizen control
A weighting of the popular vote toward less populous states might be beneficial, but the electoral college goes far beyond that. It removes the real power of the vote from citizens. In other words, the popular vote is merely ceremonial. Is that democratic?

The Electoral College isn't that secretive or arcane. The Federal Election Commission has a very good paper on the origins, development, current process, and pros and cons of the Electoral College.

http://www.fec.gov/pdf/eleccoll.pdf

It is the popular vote that selects the electors pledged to a particular candidate from each state, so the vote isn't ceremonial, and "faithless" electors (7 in 200+ years) have never had an actual impact on who won.

Besides, the Electoral college is only used for the election of president. All (or at least the overwhelming majority of) other elections for senators, congressmen, state governors and legislatures, mayors, dog catchers, etc. are direct elections.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Tuesday, August 31, 2004 11:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:

This is a very informative thread. I wish Bush and Kerry would talk and debate like this.

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

If Bush and Kerry debated like this, 99% of viewers would change the channel to Spike TV and watch reruns of 'World's Wildest Police Videos'.

But I'm actually learning a lot just doing research about the conflicting positions. Gets the old brain working.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

RUE

Saturday, September 4, 2004 7:23 PM

Just a general note;

I have not forgotten about the postings I said I would make about the topic "Bush and his administration purposefully lied" to attack Iraq.

I've been involved in a project from hell the last few weeks, taking roughly 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. I expect it to go thru October.

I'll be posting when I can.

SIGNYM

Sunday, May 14, 2006 3:46 PM

In looking for something else, I found a thread started by Geezer in which he claims to be middle of the road.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

JMB9039

Monday, May 15, 2006 3:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CrevanReaver:
Bush didn't lie, he was mislead. He had the United Nations, Bill Clinton, Vladimir Putin, George Tenet's CIA, and even the odd behavior of Saddam Hussein telling him that there were WMDs. After so much pressure, he had to believe that Iraq was an imminent threat.

Ah yes, everbody's fault but the president's. I don't buy it. Whatever happend to "the buck stops here." He is the CIC; he is responsible.

Also, I think it is important to determine whether or not a politician lies. If you just let them lie and let them cheat then there is no accountability and they can keep on doing it. Bush keeps calling for accountability from everyone else (even teachers in poor schools) except himself. If we don't hold politicians accountable then the problem will just perpetuate itself - we set a precident that this is all ok.

JMB9039

CHRISISALL

Monday, May 15, 2006 4:01 PM

OOOpps, that's it! Get ready for the whiners sayin' "There Are WMD's, He couldn't have known for sure, It was the best intelligence at the time, It's a war on terrorism/Of course Iraq's not about terrorism, blagh blagh, etc."

Seen it before Chrisisall

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