Defense of Home
POSTED BY: StillFlyin
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 07:32
VIEWED: 10548
PAGE 5 of 9
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Would you condone execution without trial for burglary?
Execution is over the line for burglary, maybe cutting off a hand...
I have already said that killing the kid was over the line, but given the choice of letting him go unpunished and killing him...
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Personally I don't think any crime warrants a death penalty.
Disagree but on practical reasons. Most people who are in prison for life are either repeat hardened criminals, or psychopaths. I for one do not want my tax dollars going to keep them housed and entertained for the rest of their lives. Particularly when they spend most of their time trying to get out and commit more crimes.
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Would I put my own personal well being below my possessions? No. For a start I have insurance.
Insurance is good, but again do we let the criminals do what they want? Get away when we have the ability to stop them?
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If the choice is stand aside and let them run away or kill them when all they're trying to do is escape, I'd let them leave. That way I don't get hurt and no one has to go to court to explain why there is an unarmed corpse in their front room.
Once again, as I said lethal force should not be the first option, there are still kneecaps.
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but the failures of the court system are not an excuse for vigilantism nor murder.
Generally agree, however if justice cannot be found in the courts then where should we look?
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My point all along is reasonable force in trying to defend your self. If someone attacks me, even if they are trying to kill me, I will seek to incapacitate them so that I can escape.
And then when he wakes up (before the police show up), he victimizes someone else, or starts looking for you personally.
Once again though lethal force is probably not usually neccesary, force often is.
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Now if someone's standing with their gun to your head, THEN firing your own weapon is a last resort.
By that point its too late, if you had shot them when they first pulled the gun...
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If however, you have a gun and they have a knife and they’re some distance away 'blowing them away' certainly is not the last resort.
Completely agree, however if they come towards you and attack then something has to happen. Once again I don't want to find out who is faster the hard way.
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You should always try to run away first, if you come running down stairs pistol drawn then your going to have a confrontation
Probably.
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If you escape out the back door no one gets hurt, including YOU.
But they get away, the criminal escapes, there is a good chance that they will not get caught, and if they that they will get a slap on the wrist. So you have to fight the insurance company to get your stuff back, probably not getting everything, then the someone else gets robbed as well and the cycle continues.
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I still fail to see how misdemeanour assault or robbery warrants a death sentence.
It doesn't really, I was kidding about the backhoe (though we do have one...), but once again between letting a criminal go to victimize again or the death penalty...
But like I have said many times, there is always kneecaps.
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No, but if you don't put a stop gap on it you've got a free ticket to murder.
Agree which is why every incident should be investigated thouroughly.
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If I want to kill you all I have to do is get you into my house.
First off you've already said that you would let me take all your stuff without lifting a finger (still waiting on that address). Secondly that is why the incidents would be investigated. The law as written is probably (I haven't read it) not a free ticket to kill anyone in your house.
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Originally posted by fredgiblet:
I have already said that killing the kid was over the line, but given the choice of letting him go unpunished and killing him...
Then you let him go. Execution is over the line for burglary, even if the alternative is letting them get away with it.
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Disagree but on practical reasons. Most people who are in prison for life are either repeat hardened criminals, or psychopaths. I for one do not want my tax dollars going to keep them housed and entertained for the rest of their lives. Particularly when they spend most of their time trying to get out and commit more crimes.
This is an entirely different debate. I'll leave it with the fact that violent crime is higher where the death penalty is used...
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Insurance is good, but again do we let the criminals do what they want? Get away when we have the ability to stop them?
No, that's what the police and the courts are for. That's why vigilantism is illegal, because a burglary can easily turn into a murder, either of the burglar or the house owner. Personally I'd prefer an unsolved burglary to a solved murder.
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Once again, as I said lethal force should not be the first option, there are still kneecaps.
That's kind of pandering to my point, reasonable force...
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Generally agree, however if justice cannot be found in the courts then where should we look?
Improving the court system.
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And then when he wakes up (before the police show up), he victimizes someone else, or starts looking for you personally.
If that's an issue you run away...
…to a police station and make a statement and let the criminal justice system take it's course.
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Once again though lethal force is probably not usually neccesary, force often is.
Reasonable force is fine, which is what I've been saying all along
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By that point its too late, if you had shot them when they first pulled the gun...
It didn't work like this even in the Wild West
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But they get away, the criminal escapes, there is a good chance that they will not get caught, and if they that they will get a slap on the wrist. So you have to fight the insurance company to get your stuff back, probably not getting everything, then the someone else gets robbed as well and the cycle continues.
Well we could organise a posse to drag the burglars away and lynch them. But personally I'd prefer to let a flawed criminal justice system deal with them than go down the route of vigilantism
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but once again between letting a criminal go to victimize again or the death penalty...
I don't think the death penalty is a particularly good deterrent.
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First off you've already said that you would let me take all your stuff without lifting a finger (still waiting on that address).
You can risk you're life for a TV if you want but I won't. At the end of the day the most likely event is they won't have taken anything.
In any event if you come down stairs and tell them the Police have been called they're going to want to leave, if you stand in their way they will want to leave through you. When people confront an intruder with a weapon more often than not that weapon ends up getting used against them.
There was a show on not too long ago featuring a guy called Chris Ryan, who was in the British SAS, a member of the Bravo Two Zero Squad from the first Gulf War. One of the programs featured a scenario where the home owner confronts an intruder and Chris Ryan’s advice was to let them go. Frankly when a member of arguably the best trained military regiment in the world is saying “let them go” I’m inclined to listen
.If you want to throw the dice and hope that this time it's them rather than you, then that is your decision, I'd rather step aside and let them keep the stereo.
It's old crappy and needs replacing anyway
. Not to mention I recently pulled it apa
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I am getting rather tired of this arguement, I do have a life (seriously, no really I do), and I really don't want to keep running around around in circles. So if you are willing then lets agree to disagree. I'd still like your address though
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Quote:Are you happy with a person being executed for being in his own home when a criminal decides to break in and kill him? The victim can’t know what the intent of a criminal who breaks into his or her house is, and the law shouldn’t require him to know what he can’t.
Originally posted by citizen:
Are you happy with the concept that someone can be executed for burglary without trial?
Quote:If I know that’s all he’s after then you might have a point, but criminals rarely break in with a requisition order to assure me that he’s after my VCR. If I mistake him for trying to kill my daughter, I don’t think I should be held responsible for that mistake.
Originally posted by citizen:
Seriously if someone breaks into your home to kill you then use whatever force necessary up to and including lethal to stop them. If however they entered your house to steal your VCR I have a hard time understanding how anyone can justify killing them.
And don’t I have a right to protect my VCR? If it’s my VCR shouldn’t I have the right to take it back from him in a way that isn’t intended to kill him? Or does the act of breaking into someone’s house necessarily imply that the ownership of my VCR passes to the invader?
And if I have that right, and I do attempt to retrieve my VCR, but the criminal responds violently in a way that makes me think he intends to use lethal force to which I reciprocate with lethal force, does that make me a murderer?
Quote:No, it’s actually a piece of shit. If someone wanted it bad enough to break into my house, I’d let them have. I’d probably give them the tapes and a handling fee, but the point is that I don’t think my property rights should necessarily pass to whoever decides they want that property today. And I don’t think someone should be penalized for protecting his property.
Originally posted by citizen:
To protect a VCR? It must be a really good one; does it make coffee for you in the morning and everything?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Citizen, what do you think of these scenarios?
A)I wake up to a noise and go downstairs to find two men stealing stuff. I say in a very manly, Terminator-like voice "Get out." They run, still holding some stuff, and I don't follow.
B)I wake up to a noise and go downstairs to find two men stealing stuff. I say in a very manly, Terminator-like voice "Get out." They drop what they're holding and rush me. I smash a lamp in one's face, and as I get grabbed by the other, I reach around and pinch his throat, Drunken-style. Maybe one dies, I dunno, because I'll leave it there...
Did I do wrong?
Ancillary facts: Both my size, strength.
Curious Chrisisall, on Citizen's Day
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"Ancillary facts: Both my size, strength."
I've seen this before. I hate it when I see it. What difference does it make how big and strong someone is?
--He looked bigger when he was punching me in the f*cking face Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Just my general take on things -
Living in the land of gangs ... who really enjoy a bit of fun personal terrorism while they go for your jewels and cash ...
I suppose it depends what you're used to. If you live where burglary generally happens while you're away, and your window gets smashed and a few things taken, then using a gun in self defense probably does seem extreme. And even if you live where 'in your face' burglary is the norm, you shouldn't be shooting people in the back as they run off.
But if you live in a society where violent crime is all over the news (which heightens fear), and if you youreself have been a victim of an attack and/or you personally know someone who has, it lends a different color to a break-in. Especially if you are home. Because you fear how far the person MIGHT go, the option to use a gun might seem reassuring. (This is neglecting the whole adviso that when you point a gun you MUST shoot without hesitation.)
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Quote:Just in case there was an issue with me beating up on two girly-sized young boys...
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Ancillary facts: Both my size, strength."
I've seen this before. I hate it when I see it. What difference does it make how big and strong someone is?
--He looked bigger when he was punching me in the f*cking face Anthony
Ya never know.
I feel that if someone attacks you, size or gender don't matter; they could be semi-pro weightlifters, extremely good streetfighters, or armed in some way, best to assume all of the above, for self-preservation's sake.
Attack the attack Chrisisall
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Quote:There is the notion that if you don't use your weapon, someone else will...
Originally posted by rue:
(This is neglecting the whole adviso that when you point a gun you MUST shoot without hesitation.)
Just sayin' Chrisisall
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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I've seen this before. I hate it when I see it. What difference does it make how big and strong someone is?
Depends on perspective, attacker vs. attacked. Sorry, but if you are a 25 yr old male, 6'5", 350+, being hit by a 17 yr old kid who has something to prove or is desperate, who is 5'6, 185, I'd say that's a huge consideration involving the use of force. You could conceivably hit with enough force to kill, or an attempt to subdue could turn lethal (I know several bouncers, and there was a story recently where 3 large men accidentally suffocated a smaller man while holding him down waiting for authorities).
OTOH, when attacked by a considerably larger attacker, who could conceivably do more damage to you than you could inflict in unarmed combat (or even some armed - try stopping an all-pro linebacker with a small knife), then your response would have to be upgraded in extremity.
To say that size has no bearing on response is foolish.
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"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
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