Male and Female Imponderables Part Deux
POSTED BY: Tristan
UPDATED: Monday, May 15, 2006 20:33
VIEWED: 25808
PAGE 9 of 23
Just another of my two (and a half) cents:
PheonixRose, I think you have a good point about us menfolk needing to be a tad more reassuring and communicative. Whether or not I have a tendency to withdraw and such, I'll be the first to admit that it's not a quality I'm terribly happy with. I would like to think that if I were in a "perfect" and happy relationship, I'd be a little more open about my feelings and thoughts. Seeing as how I'm just beginning to see a girl I like, it's been on my mind a lot lately. Trying to be better, but it's not always so easy...
Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
So, where was I? Ah, yes, the cave. I understand there is a cave. I respected the cave. However when a man goes into his cave for two weeks and doesn't even quite come out of it to tel you he's dumping you, that's a little unreasonable to me.
First off, I'm sorry to hear you were hurt that way. As someone who's actually done that before, I can honestly say that he really has no excuse. At the time, with me, I made a rationalization that it was somehow for her own good, and because I cared about her, wanted to save her pain or something, blah blah blah. (Like I said, it was a rationalization, not something anything like the real truth :) For what little consolation it may be worth: he likely didn't deserve you anyways, and if he couldn't come clean with you it doesn't sound like there was much hope for the relationship anyways.
One last thing on the subject of opening up to your partner. Something I thought of last night was the whole macho factor. I think I'm a fairly sensitive guy, so far as guys go (cry at movies, and the like.) But it still comes into play. It's the same reason we don't like to stop for directions. We're the ones who are supposed to be supporting everyone else. If we let that guard down, we lose our machismo. Years of phsycological reinforcement don't make that sort of thing easy to deal with. Hard to be the big, tough guy when you're admitting a weakness...
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You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. (Or if Kaylee asks me nicely...)
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Quote:
Originally posted by nuclearday:
For what little consolation it may be worth: he likely didn't deserve you anyways, and if he couldn't come clean with you it doesn't sound like there was much hope for the relationship anyways.
*Siiiigghh* Yes, you are correct. I try not to let the catch-22 of "Oh, but if only he had been able to come clean with me..." run through my head too much because I know it doesn't help. Obviously there were problems. I thought we had been doing pretty good, and that he did deserve me because he really did treat me pretty well. Up until the punching, it was a real nice party. But I knew we had a few issues and it would be up to him if they got resolved or not.I'm betting there were some issues I didn't even pick up on, too. Anyway he made his call. So yes, there was no hope. Obviously. But however many times I say "I'm better off" or "He really didn't deserve me" or "There's nothing more I could have done" it never takes away the sense of loss. I wouldn't have been with him as long as I was if there wasn't something good there. The hard part about that is that he really left me wondering if the something good was just all in my head, because he acted like the whole two-year run had really been... well, nothing. I know there was something there, I know what happened, but it's like he forgot.GAH! I'm whining again! Stopit!
Thank you for the consolation. The more I hear it, the more likely it is to sink in.
Quote:
One last thing on the subject of opening up to your partner. Something I thought of last night was the whole macho factor. I think I'm a fairly sensitive guy, so far as guys go (cry at movies, and the like.) But it still comes into play. It's the same reason we don't like to stop for directions. We're the ones who are supposed to be supporting everyone else. If we let that guard down, we lose our machismo. Years of phsycological reinforcement don't make that sort of thing easy to deal with. Hard to be the big, tough guy when you're admitting a weakness...
Yes, I understand that. I've always felt that general society has poisoned many good men and that it's a damn shame. I personally think the wall called machismo is the least attractive thing possible and really just gets in the way. I know there are women who think otherwise, and I think they're morons. Holding either gender to unreasonable standards is just ridiculous. Women are not all going to be built to specifications, nore are they all going to be perfect mothers, nor should they be expected to be anything other than themselves. Men, likewise are not going to be built to specifications, nor are they going to be rock-like and all-knowing in every situation and that shouldn't be expected either. If someone really wants a partnership, unreasonable expectations do not come into play. Being vulnerable or "weak" or not 100% perfect around someone who loves you should not make someone feel bad. I do think this came into play with my relationship, and that's just a shame. He'd been vulnerable in ways that didn't make him feel weak (and seemed to enjoy that imensely) but a short hospital stay and pretty soon he's keeping me at arm's length. Ridiculous.
I believe there is nothing more important than being happy in this 'verse. Letting unreasonable expectations get in the way of happiness is the most foolish thing we as humans do. I know it's not easy to overcome what we feel is expected of us; but you know, I've done it so I know it's possible. And I would never undo it. Hiding myself only led to trouble, and I've been much happier since I just let that go. It was very freeing.
I can be a strong, supportive presence, and I am far from macho. Strong and supportive is good, machismo is not. No one knows everything, and no one is immune to everything. Just saying it probably won't convince anyone, but trust me. A whole, real person is far more attractive in the long run. At least to me. And every intelligent person I've ever spoken to in my life. Even those who claim t
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I think part of him treating the whole 2 years like it didn't happen is men have trouble remembering how they used to feel. After the loving feeling goes, they tend to be very "I was in love with her? Why?" and just shrug off how they used to feel. I think women can remember better how passionate it was and that makes it harder for them.
I know it's not easy but men need caves. We also need to left alone in our caves. It's important to know that if there's something we want to work out and you offer to help, a man can take that to mean "You're an idiot, let me think for you" which doesn't help. Plus of course sometimes the thoughts we have in our caves shouldn't be shared, even with our nearest and dearest. You don't come back from girl's nights and tell us everything, do you?
The worst one is if we're going to our cave to decide if we want to continue with our relationship, for both people involved. I'm sure it must have been terrible to just be surprised with that.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
I think part of him treating the whole 2 years like it didn't happen is men have trouble remembering how they used to feel. After the loving feeling goes, they tend to be very "I was in love with her? Why?"
...
You may have just convinced me to only date women for the rest of my life.
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One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.
Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.
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Another one? Damnit, I should get royalty fees from The National Association of Lesbians.
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No, I'm actually bi, so I wouldn't technically count as a lesbian, I just might never date another man. Doesn't mean I wouldn't ever be attracted to them, just not really wanting to experience that attitude ever again.
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One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.
Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.
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Well, not every man is like that and it's not an "attitude" really, more a difficulty in temporal empathy. It's like opening your wardrobe and trying to remember why you used to like those shoes so much.
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Hey, I have never lost my love for a pair of shoes! Every time I have had to part from a pair of shoes I have been sad and wished that they hadn't worn out.
And call it what you will, when you're on the recieving end of it, it certainly feels like an attitude.
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One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.
Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.
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That's my point: men wouldn't get that sense of emotional connectivity. It's one of our Martian things.
I get that it's stupid though. Particularly when it's husbands who, after a twenty year marriage, say "I just don't feel the same way about you anymore" and expect that to be it.
Is there a good way to be dumped? Obviously, in person, yes but beyond that? Cliches... ugh. Telling the other person how wonderful they are... but... ugh.
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No, there is no "good way" to be dumped, but there are "better ways" to be dumped.
Telling someone you don't want to hurt them or think they're a wonderful person? Bad way to start. You are going to hurt them, so saying you don't want to is just confusing and, well, a lie. Lies are bad. Pretty much any "white lie" I've been told in an attempt to soften the blow has just pissed me off. Don't tell white lies. Lies are bad.
"I just don't feel the same anymore."
Bad. Ok, to you it may be true, but to a woman it doesn't make sense. And I seriously doubt it's just that simple. There is usually a reason for things falling apart. Even in your example of 20 years of marriage: It could be something as stupid as "You used my gorram razor to shave your legs one too many times and it made me crazy!" but there is usually a reason behind the "just not feeling the same" it's just a matter of sucking it up and admitting it.
For me, a breakup would be easier if I could learn something from it. Really. Maybe not all women are like this, but I really am. If there was something that drove someone away from me, I want to know what it was so I can try to improve, so maybe the next relationship will go better. It's going to hurt no matter what, so I may as well get some kind of benifit from it.
"It's just not working out because..." (enter whatever reasons apply here) is really the best way I can think of to be dumped. It's not pretty, it's not sugar coated, but it's honest. I have broken up with one person in my life and this is what I used for them. I said, "It's really not working out because you seem to think I'm this way or should be that way and really I'm this way and you get twitchy about that so I don't feel you accept me and it's really snuffed out all the feelings I have for you." I don't know if he learned anything from that or not, but I gave him honesty, so I don't have to look back and feel ashamed of myself for jerking someone around.
So no, there's really no good way to be dumped, but a straightforward and honest dump beats a sugar-coated, not-you-it's-me, I-really-do-care-about-you-even-though-I'm-tearing-your-heart-out dump.
But that's just me. Some people don't mind being lied to.
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One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.
Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.
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