Fighting for what's right.
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 3, 2006 15:07
VIEWED: 3499
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Let's go back in time a little.
The U.S. government decides to do the right thing, regardless. Saddam is ousted during the Gulf War. America takes out dictators that kill their people in Bosnia and Kosovo and Ruwanda and wherever else.
War is not fought to secure oil production or supply.
Alternative energy R & D gets bigtime funding.
Oil prices go up.
Where would we be right now do you think?
Chrisisall
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The right thing ?
You couldn't have invaded Iraq in Gulf war one because None of you local allies with the exception of Kuwait which was occupied would have allow their soil to be used for basing.
Kosovo would have not become a problem if the west hadn't of started arming the KLA provoking the Serbian army to come in.
stay home......
" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "
The Killers
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The right thing ?
stay home......
Well, I was saying from that particular point in recent history...
If you want to go back farther, we could have traded for land instead of slaughtering the Native Americans, but I was going for more recent possibilities.
I meant, what if at the time of the Gulf War, the U.S. decided NOT to arm tyrants, not to back dictators, not to initiate war for oil; what if she decided to go for what's right, instead of what's secure- would the world economy be better? Would 911 have even happened?
Would we be closer to armageddon or utopia?
Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The right thing ?
stay home......
Well, I was saying from that particular point in recent history...
If you want to go back farther, we could have traded for land instead of slaughtering the Native Americans, but I was going for more recent possibilities.
I meant, what if at the time of the Gulf War, the U.S. decided NOT to arm tyrants, not to back dictators, not to initiate war for oil; what if she decided to go for what's right, instead of what's secure- would the world economy be better? Would 911 have even happened?
Would we be closer to armageddon or utopia?
Chrisisall
If at the end of the Gulf War, had the US began a phased withdraw from the middle-east, perhaps transferred weapons and equipment to the Saudis, Kuwaitis, Jordanians, etc... but brought their troops out.... As well as not provoking armed rebellion in Iraq and then standing back to watch it be crushed, as well as not forcing an embargo which wasn't working but killing thousands anyway....
Your entire foreign policy brought about 911, one could go back to the end of WW2 to track why the middleeast is not a good place for you to be... but it was going to happen eventually, a few small changes might have delayed it.... but nothing short of rethinking what the US assumes is its place in the world will change anything.
" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "
The Killers
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Your entire foreign policy brought about 911
This is well known, just as the Allies of WWI brought about Hitler's rise to power.
Almost all-bad things are brought about by the foreign policy of people traditionally not blamed.
The question was where would we be if the foreign policy had been different, that is a question you totally ignored in all possible ways. If you don't want to respond to the question asked, or at the very least something that is in the thread, why even post in the thread?
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Well, the 9-11 question depends on how much US-support of Israel actually played into the matter since it was one of Bin-Laden's beefs. Did the Oslo Accords go through or not? When we take out these dictators do we try to install our people or do we let them settle their own form of government like in N. Somalia where they actually have stability now? What did we do with all that capital that wasn't spent on "war for oil"? Did it go toward long-term improvement projects in the Middle East? Did we deploy smaller 'peace keeping' forces to other hot spots? Or did we stay home and let them kill each other while we put the money elsewhere for our own social/economic improvements?
My theory: In the early 90s, with Saddam gone and Clinton in the White House, a renewed sentiment of 'What in the hell are we fightin' for?' sweeps Americans. Peace spontaneously breaks out. The money being sent to the Army is cut and put into the Peace Corps and education. Higher education is now affordable for every American citizen. This new breed of college student attends school aware that she/he is on the government's dime and is taught liberalism as only colleges can indoctri- I mean, teach it! They graduate idealistic, grateful, altruistic, mostly liberal and more importantly - free from crushing student debt.
Without the fetters of tens of thousands of dollars in loans, these wide-eyed idealists go out and decide that joining the Peace Corps (which has expanded significantly thanks to that vastly increased budget) is the perfect way to give a little back to the world that has given them so much. The ranks swell and soon it seems as though every member of the Third World knows five or six American college graduates who serve a stint trying to make their country better. The Peace Corps volunteers learn, love, smoke weed, teach english, provide medical services, smoke more weed, develop high-tech communication systems, create small-level business opportunities, build clincs and other public-service buildings, help villagers and do some dope.
While some will choose to remain in the Peace Corps indefinately, most return to the States after two year gigs to pursue a graduate degree on Uncle Sam's dime or to go out into the workforce with the experience they need to succeed. Soon these young go-getters take office and follow a begnin policy with excellent foreign relations, for they are citizens of the world. For some reason, they also quickly legalize pot in a move that shocks and angers the tabacco and alcohol industry which, as well all know, had nothing to do with the criminalizing of pot back in the day. NASA finally gets the funding it needs to begin serious off-world colonization projects, for the politicians have seen the effects of over-population on our fragile Earth.
The Army still exists and is a small, efficent force that is well-maintained. Their prime objective is to protect Peace Corps volunteers when things go south. With this protective umbrella o'er its head, over the years the Peace Corps manages bring about prosperity and stability in the world, one communal project at a time until there is no longer a third-world, but countries where, while they are not wealthy, the people are not living in abject poverty. They are grateful to the US and all the students who came to help. Everyone has access to health care. Everyone has access to education. Everyone has access to McDonald's.
Oh, that's right, I forgot to mention McDonalds - you see, once those grateful people had a little bit of capital to purchase products instead of just manufacturing them, Nike, Starbucks and McDonald's moved right in. And since no two countries with McDonald's in them have ever gone to war . . .did I mention that they all speak English now? Taught to them by the good ol' PC volunteers. Yep, it's a pre-requisite to work at that Wal-Mart we put up by their village.
And THAT is how you do Globalization - I mean, bring about world peace had things gone differently in the 90s. 
One day.
One plan.
One
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Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Your entire foreign policy brought about 911
This is well known, just as the Allies of WWI brought about Hitler's rise to power.
Almost all-bad things are brought about by the foreign policy of people traditionally not blamed.
The question was where would we be if the foreign policy had been different, that is a question you totally ignored in all possible ways. If you don't want to respond to the question asked, or at the very least something that is in the thread, why even post in the thread?
I read three question here
1. would the world economy be better?
2. Would 911 have even happened?
3.Would we be closer to armageddon or utopia?
For 2 I answered even if a few minor changes, etc, etc it would have eventually happened anyway
I figured 1 and 3 were obvious with 2 answered
Hey Chrisisall... Should I elaborate more or did my answer answer the premise of your general question ?
" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "
The Killers
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html
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Quote:In the midst of a lot of little wars with the anti-Bush types on the Left and Right calling Bush evil. We would be right where we are today. American politics of the last 10 years before Bush was dominated by a desire to avoid issues and look for easy solutions. As such any problems that required real attention (Iraq and Afghanistan, among them) were largely ignored or pushed to the back, because neither Clinton nor Bush the 1st wanted to deal with them. And the truth is that Bush the 2nd had every intention of continuing the realpolitick policies of his father, then 9/ll happened, and it occurred to Bush and many others that you simply can’t ignore these problems forever.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Where would we be right now do you think?
The political atmosphere following the end of the Cold War was that all was finally well with the world and people wanted to relish that feeling, but it was never true.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:I think you addressed my question, just not directly, but you answered it.
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Hey Chrisisall... Should I elaborate more or did my answer answer the premise of your general question ?
We've screwed things up too long for a sudden change in policy 15 years ago to make a big difference today, it would be pretty much as it is- that right?
Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:I think you addressed my question, just not directly, but you answered it.
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Hey Chrisisall... Should I elaborate more or did my answer answer the premise of your general question ?
We've screwed things up too long for a sudden change in policy 15 years ago to make a big difference today, it would be pretty much as it is- that right?
Chrisisall
Exactly, that is why no peacekeeping effort ramrodded by the US has ever been successfull...
The US always puts its short term self interest first and picks sides... And that has drasticly effected the rest of the worlds outlook towards American foreign policy.
I also think that is one of the reason most Americans don't understand China, they understand short term self interest is judged over a few decades, not a matter of months...
Patience Grasshopper, and the world will be yours
" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "
The Killers
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html
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