Simon Tam = Asperger's?
POSTED BY: Miku
UPDATED: Monday, October 14, 2013 04:10
VIEWED: 17451
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"I really feel as if you are arguing about one tiny detail and missing the bigger picture here. The REAL point I am trying to make is that Simon does NOT consistently meet the criteria for Asperger's, as I've said numerous times now."
I'm not missing the big picture, it's just that your details in support of your big picture aren't convincing. I'm aware of what your big picture is, and aware that it's quite likely to be correct (remember what I said in my first post about his personality likely being something made up with no reference to asperger's, but ending up resembling it in some ways? that's still what my stand is).
Unless there's some body movement or vocal inflection that means "the negative way in which i'm reacting is not only because i have every reason to be upset, but also because i'm experiencing it as if i were in her place," then I don't see how you can conclusively use his facial expressions/vocal inflections etc to determine that he has fully fledged empathetic skills. If he feels her pain, his facial expression will look sad/angry/upset. If he knows her pain, his facial expression will likely look the same. This is like employers' obsession with experience. I've never worked as a data entry keyer before, but I do type over 100wpm with no errors.
Feeling someone's situation is not required to react accordingly.
It's not that I assumed this example is your only example, it's that I assumed it's one of your best, or at least one that you believe works. I showed why I think it doesn't work as proper evidence for what probably is very correct. And you gave me that one example for empathy, so one example that strikes me as inconclusive and insulting at a time.
While I do agree that he couldn't properly be diagnosed with asperger's, I don't think that's any reason to shrug off criteria that he does meet.
Whether they are actually the result of something else (like his upbringing) or not, there are things about him that resemble someone with AS.
There's nothing wrong with details any more than there's anything wrong with the big picture. Details are what make up the big picture, so they have to be addressed in order to address the big picture.
Sorry if this is all annoying to you, but do you see what I mean about the empathy thing? Someone acting (nonverbally) as one would expect them to if they are empathetic is by no means proof that they are empathetic, if the very same way of acting would also be expected in that situation of someone without the same empathy.
I'm not saying that your judgment of his facial expression looking sad or upset is wrong; I'm saying that the assumption that it can only be sad if it's because of empathy, is wrong.
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"Are you saying that you take issue with people saying that Simon doesn't have Asperger's because he doesn't display the symptoms? "
I don't get it... Why did you quote me (saying that I don't take issue with those people), asking me if I do?
EDIT: I figured out where you misunderstood. You didn't read the word "means." So what I said came out as "Just have some minor issues with people deciding he doesn't." Not what I said.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miku:
Sorry if this is all annoying to you, but do you see what I mean about the empathy thing? Someone acting (nonverbally) as one would expect them to if they are empathetic is by no means proof that they are empathetic, if the very same way of acting would also be expected in that situation of someone without the same empathy.
I'm not saying that your judgment of his facial expression looking sad or upset is wrong; I'm saying that the assumption that it can only be sad if it's because of empathy, is wrong.
And again you are missing my point. It's not that I don't believe Asperger's people can't feel empathetic towards others, it's that "typically developed" people are NATURALLY able to do this. They are naturally able to put themselves in another's shoes.
Simon's ability to easily show true empathy in a variety of situations and not just behave like he feels empathetic is what led me to believe that he is an empathetic individual. This is my own personal judgment based on my analysis of his behaviors. As an empathetic person myself, I "felt" Simon's reaction to his sister's amygdala being stripped was one of empathy, not a cold analysis of how a stripped amygdala functions and a resulting decision to "behave" empathetically. It is easy for me to tell when a person is simply "acting" like they feel an emotion, and when they actually "feel" an emotion. One other way of telling that Simon is emotionally moved by this discovery is the way he explains the amygdala's functions to Jayne. "She feels everything, she can't not." There is pain in his voice, you can hear it if you listen. Again, this is my own analysis of the situation.
You may disagree with me if you like, but we will have to agree to disagree. I can name numerous other examples that I feel prove his ability to show empathy, but I really don't think that's necessary.
And, once again, even if you disagree that he is empathetic, this is only ONE of many, many criteria for Asperger's. Regardless of whether Simon shows empathy or not, he does not meet the criteria to be diagnosed for Asperger's when one looks at the DSM-IV. This argument about the amygdala scene is like arguing whether or not a person has a hangnail when they're dead of a gunshot wound to the head. It doesn't matter in the long run: the person's still dead. Just like it doesn't matter whether Simon shows empathy in that scene: he still doesn't fit the criteria for Asperger's.
At some point in time, I would argue that we all might meet one part of the criteria for Asperger's or other diseases. It's frequently known as "Psychology Student Syndrome:" you read about an illness and suddenly you think you fit all the symptoms. Just because he meets one of the criteria (which I would argue against anyway) doesn't mean that he has Asperger's. Heck, I'm perseverating right now on trying to get my point across. Does that mean I have Asperger's? No.
And with that, I'll agree to disagree with you and move on.
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I love my Captain
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miku:
EDIT: I figured out where you misunderstood. You didn't read the word "means." So what I said came out as "Just have some minor issues with people deciding he doesn't." Not what I said.
I read the word "means." You said that you just have some minor issues with the means by which people are making their cases, or something to that effect. They way I understand it, you don't like that people are pointing to specific symptoms to "prove" that Simon doesn't have Asperger's because these symptoms are not universal. My point, however, is that there is no reason to diagnose Simon with Asperger's other than our own observations of his symptoms. As far as I am aware, this is the first place this discussion has taken place. Therefore, each refuted symptom is part of the larger case against Simon having Asperger's.
It is possible that I mistook your argument against Kelly's point about the amygdala scene for a broader issue with the means people have been using to refute the Asperger's theory (i.e., picking out specific symptoms to refute). If this is the case, then I take back my assertion. However, whether or not Kelly's point is true does not matter in the long run anyways because Simon does not display enough symptoms to be diagnosed with Asperger's.
~lissa, retired spwhore
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I like your idea about this, since, yes, Simon is a bit shitty at the communicating thing, but I don't think he has Asperger's.
My little bro has Asperger's (he's at the high functioning end of the spectrum), and there is too much that Simon does, which not display as Asperger's, even if he was in the highest functioning rangr of the spectrum.
He's secretive, and bad at communicating because of his upbringing and initial position on the ship. This fades with the crew as the show and movie progress, and continues with Kaylee because of his lack of lady charmin' skills.
From experience, I can say that someone with Asperger's would always stay withdrawn even after a lifetime of knowing someone. They may eb comfortable around someone, but they communicate in a way that is withdrawn, and almost like they are still talking to a stranger. They may focus intently on one think they are incerdibly interested in and, despite Simon's doctor babble, he can easily be stopped. That is his defensive mechanism, a safe place for him to go. Those with Asperger's typicaly speak this way because they either do not know how to react in their current situation, or they are narrowing focusing in on somehting that they are devoting all of their attention to. They will intently speak about that one subject, and while they may stop when asked to, will pick the conversaiton up at a later time from the exact same place. Literally, I have stopped my brother mid sentance, and he has picked it up mid sentance hours later. The focus ould be something like thei work or a school subject, but often times is somethign that the generla population would consider trivial such as a T.V. Show, a video game or facts about Big Horned Sheep (again, personal experience with these three). There is often little patience for things that do no pertain to their current focus, and I have seen my brother talk for hours about one level of Kingdom Hearts and then throw a fit when asked to get dressed, or even eat a meal. They often have trouble in school, since general academics are most likely not going to be their focus, and from what we've seen Mr. Top 3% had no trouble in school, and also enjoyed some non academic persuits such as singing nekkid. However, some may say Simon's intense drive to bust River out was his focus after his focus from doctor land faded, I would have to disagree since I have a younger sibling and when he is in any danger, no matter how small I do everything to make him safe. The sibling instinct is stronger then all, and the Tams had an espically close relationship that justifies Simon's non-focus a disregard for persoanl safety.
They do often have above average intelligence, again like Simon, but usually do not have the social skills to apply it to something like trauma surgery. The atmospehere of a trauma ward, and crowded operating room would be overwhelming for them, and would most likely cause them to shut down, not flourish as Simon did. They would pull a River, and curl up in the corner, covering their ears or act out aganist those that may be trying to help them.
Having had daily personal experience with Asperger's, I can say that the written reports of difficult with non-verbal communication are 100% accurate. Simon is able to use his face and his body to accuratly express what he is feeling, if he says so or not. You can tell if he is mad or scared just by looking at him. People with Asperger's typically do not communicate these nuances in body language. They may sit, stand, move, ro look the same way when they are both mad and happy. If they do communicate nonverbally it is usually with a full body gesture such as hand or posture, instead of subtle face nuances since they are not as aware of what they are doing with their face as neurotypical individuals. Even if they learn to control their face better, and begin to use these nuance; they are usually exaggerated and may appear almost comical to an individual not familar with this symptom of Asperger's.
This is written purely from the personal experience I have with
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Quote:I didn't mean it to be, sorry if I offended anyone. Just trying to say that the traits that I see in Simon that could be considered symptoms of Asperger's are simply geeky characteristics. We simply don't know him well enough to diagnose this.
Originally posted by lissa:Quote:um...that was just a tad offensive...
Originally posted by mattcoz:
He doesn't have Asperger's, he's just a geek, although there's not much of a difference.
Btw, I took that Autism-Spectrum Quotient test linked in the wikipedia article and I scored a 30, which seems high, whatever that means.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mattcoz:Quote:I didn't mean it to be, sorry if I offended anyone. Just trying to say that the traits that I see in Simon that could be considered symptoms of Asperger's are simply geeky characteristics. We simply don't know him well enough to diagnose this.
Originally posted by lissa:Quote:um...that was just a tad offensive...
Originally posted by mattcoz:
He doesn't have Asperger's, he's just a geek, although there's not much of a difference.
Btw, I took that Autism-Spectrum Quotient test linked in the wikipedia article and I scored a 30, which seems high, whatever that means.
It's ok, I agree that Simon is a geek. It just sounded like you were saying that there's not much of a difference between people with Asperger's and geeks...I'm taking sped right now so I'm a little bit nuts about political correctness as far as this type of thing goes lol.
I just took the test...I scored a 4. I don't know what that means...lol
~lissa, retired spwhore
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Interesting discussion here.
I have a daughter with "autistic like behaviors". She has what is called Lennox-Gaustaut Syndrome, a epileptic specific encephalopathy. She is developmentally disabled, so it is hard to tell what is the result of what.
At any rate, this journey of life took a path I didn't expect after she was born. I've learned a lot of things about a lot of things. Mostly, I've learned that all people are beautiful, wonderful, miracles.
And I think Simon, like me, has 'nerditis'. Not necessarily a painful condition, but unfortunately it is not curable, and likely to be aggravated when one is under stress. 
There's no place I can be since I found serenity.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miku:
"I think you misunderstand me. What I was trying to say is Simon was able to easily put himself into River's situation and imagine what it would feel like to have his amygdala stripped."
...
His reaction to hearing it was "Jesus" in Chinese, right? Does that necessarily indicate he's feeling her situation in an empathetic way? Or could it mean A) he's a doctor and knows what an amygdala is and why it's a bad thing to have stripped, and B) something bad happened to her and he cares about her, so of course he's going to be upset.
Does anyone else see the irony here?
Miku, if you have trouble seeing the subtle social cues that Sean displayed in his portrayal of Simon in the "She feels everything, she can't not," scene, then certainly it makes sense to suggest that his reaction could just as likely be rationally based, or simply an expression of his personal loss. But for those of us who pick up the cues easily, it is not even a consideration that he is reacting in any way other than empathetically.
It reminds me of when I was in biology class and my colorblind lab partner just had to trust me when I told him that he had colored the plants orange instead of green on his photosynthesis display poster.
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Ain't. We. Just.
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Quote:
Originally posted by flautistfirst:
At any rate, this journey of life took a path I didn't expect after she was born. I've learned a lot of things about a lot of things. Mostly, I've learned that all people are beautiful, wonderful, miracles.
Welcome to Holland.
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Ain't. We. Just.
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