Simon Tam = Asperger's?
POSTED BY: Miku
UPDATED: Monday, October 14, 2013 04:10
VIEWED: 17451
PAGE 3 of 6
He doesn't have Asperger's, he's just a geek, although there's not much of a difference.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mattcoz:
He doesn't have Asperger's, he's just a geek, although there's not much of a difference.
um...that was just a tad offensive...
~lissa, retired spwhore
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There's a world of difference..
And, I'm not necessarily trying to argue with anyone by saying this, but a lot of you are saying either you know aspie children or your child psychologists.. It is important to keep in mind that aspie children act a lot different from aspie adults. My parents thought I was autistic when I was young, but now I can almost pass as normal, if I try.
And yeah.. decreased motor function doesn't necessarily mean inability to do anything that involves hands and is difficult. For example, I suck at all kinds of sports, however I am a talented pianist and typist.
Anyway, mental 'disorders' aside, I can't help but feel like most Firefly fans don't like Simon much. Why? I think he's awesome. I especially love that speech he gives to Jayne after he tries to sell him and River to the feds.
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Sorry for the double post, but, hold on:
"understands empathy (feeling bad when he discovers River's amygdala has been stripped),"
That's not empathy, not in the sense we mean when we say aspies 'lack empathy.' We're not robots, we have emotions. We're just impaired in the subtle forms of communication that are not taught to anyone (i.e. body language and vocal inflection), making us less likely to know when something's wrong with somebody when they don't say anything to indicate it. It does not mean we don't care about others.
"He is not inflexible to changes in routines (for example, when Zoe gets hurt in OOG, he doesn't say "No, this is my birthday and it's time to blow out the candles," he is able to adapt to a new and unplanned situation with ease)."
I wouldn't call somebody who says that in that situation an aspie, so much as I would call him an unreasonable jerk. But you're the one with the BA in Psychology who knows that people with Asperger's don't have emotion and don't care about others. =P So what do I know.. I'm just the person with Asperger's itself. But maybe you'll reply to this telling me I don't have it because clearly I'm using sarcasm, and that's impossible for aspies to do, right?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miku:
Sorry for the double post, but, hold on:
"understands empathy (feeling bad when he discovers River's amygdala has been stripped),"
That's not empathy, not in the sense we mean when we say aspies 'lack empathy.' We're not robots, we have emotions. We're just impaired in the subtle forms of communication that are not taught to anyone (i.e. body language and vocal inflection), making us less likely to know when something's wrong with somebody when they don't say anything to indicate it. It does not mean we don't care about others.
I think you misunderstand me. What I was trying to say is Simon was able to easily put himself into River's situation and imagine what it would feel like to have his amygdala stripped. I'm not saying that ALL people with Asperger's can't feel empathy or understand how others feel, but the vast majority of those who I have worked with have have to learn those skills. The ability to have empathy does not come as naturally to those with Asperger's as to "typically developed" individuals. Now, this is not to say that ALL people with Asperger's have difficulty with empathy, but this is only one example I used to prove that Simon's social skills were up to par with "typically developing" peers. Simon does not meet the criteria for Asperger's.
Quote:
"He is not inflexible to changes in routines (for example, when Zoe gets hurt in OOG, he doesn't say "No, this is my birthday and it's time to blow out the candles," he is able to adapt to a new and unplanned situation with ease)."
I wouldn't call somebody who says that in that situation an aspie, so much as I would call him an unreasonable jerk. But you're the one with the BA in Psychology who knows that people with Asperger's don't have emotion and don't care about others. =P So what do I know.. I'm just the person with Asperger's itself. But maybe you'll reply to this telling me I don't have it because clearly I'm using sarcasm, and that's impossible for aspies to do, right?
I wouldn't say you were only using sarcasm, I would say you're intentionally insulting me, but that's just a matter of opinion.
I never once said that people with Asperger's are incapable of using sarcasm. Never once. I'm not sure where you're getting that from.
What I said was that Simon does not meet the criteria for Asperger's as indicated in the DSM-IV.
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Not only does it not fit, it doesn't fit at ALL.
Asperger's is a maladaptation of social interaction that primarily includes a lack of empathy, something he CLEARLY has in abundance. He feels a lot.
In fact, I would go so far as to say he has a (psychologically speaking) opposite problem. He has, what is reffered to as Nerditis*. He's a nerd. Smart kids who are shy. He's just out of his element socially speaking. He's in with a rougher crew than his childhood brought up, and most likely fit very well where he grew up.
*- this is a joke. There is no actual malady named nerditis. I remind people this because...sigh... some people need to be told.
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Quote:
Originally posted by KellyofLuthien:
I wouldn't say you were only using sarcasm, I would say you're intentionally insulting me, but that's just a matter of opinion.
I never once said that people with Asperger's are incapable of using sarcasm. Never once. I'm not sure where you're getting that from.
Whoa, Miku. Defensive much?
And Kelly, I think Miku is referring to what I and a few others mentioned about one of the typical symptoms of Aspergers- taking things literally- ie- irony. I used the arguement that Simon does, indeed comprehend and use irony. I didn't, however, say anything about sarcasm.
I think we all understand that those who are Aspergers don't ALL demonstrate ALL symptoms all of the time. I think the diagnosis on my nephew was "distributes 15 of 22 pointers".
Nobody said that people with Aspergers don't have feelings. That would be ludicrous, especially to those who have soothed those feelings.
Lack of empathy, however, is something vastly difference, (and I might add that we've just seen a beautiful example of it here.)
Anyway, the real point being- Of all of the pointers, I don't Simon really doesn't exhibit any of them. *shrug*
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"I think you misunderstand me. What I was trying to say is Simon was able to easily put himself into River's situation and imagine what it would feel like to have his amygdala stripped."
I haven't seen the episode in a long while, so if what I'm about to say doesn't apply for overlooking of something that happens in the episode, ignore this.
His reaction to hearing it was "Jesus" in Chinese, right? Does that necessarily indicate he's feeling her situation in an empathetic way? Or could it mean A) he's a doctor and knows what an amygdala is and why it's a bad thing to have stripped, and B) something bad happened to her and he cares about her, so of course he's going to be upset.
Like I said, haven't seen the episode in a while, so maybe something happened that indicated he was reacting empathetically, and not rationally.
But.. I don't even think an aspie would necessarily NOT be able to imagine/understand the badness of having one's amygdala stripped. It's more commonly in situations where the facts aren't so clearly laid out and unambiguous, where people with AS tend to show a lack of empathy.
I just keep seeing people talking about autism and asperger's in a way that takes certain symptoms, and assumes they exist in every situation regardless of.. anything. There are reasons for all our quirks, and there are plenty of situations where the quirks don't manifest because there's no reason for them to, and of course a lack of anything happening rarely is noticed as something relevant from an outside perspective.
EDIT: For clarification, I'm not trying to argue that Simon has Asperger's right now; Just have some minor issues with some people's means of deciding he doesn't. I agree with the following: 1. there are other factors which very well can explain his personality, and 2. he does talk with a lot more emotion than at least i tend to, from time to time (case in point, his monologue explaining River in episode 1, just rewatched it last night).
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miku:
"I think you misunderstand me. What I was trying to say is Simon was able to easily put himself into River's situation and imagine what it would feel like to have his amygdala stripped."
I haven't seen the episode in a long while, so if what I'm about to say doesn't apply for overlooking of something that happens in the episode, ignore this.
His reaction to hearing it was "Jesus" in Chinese, right? Does that necessarily indicate he's feeling her situation in an empathetic way? Or could it mean A) he's a doctor and knows what an amygdala is and why it's a bad thing to have stripped, and B) something bad happened to her and he cares about her, so of course he's going to be upset.
Like I said, haven't seen the episode in a while, so maybe something happened that indicated he was reacting empathetically, and not rationally.
But.. I don't even think an aspie would necessarily NOT be able to imagine/understand the badness of having one's amygdala stripped. It's more commonly in situations where the facts aren't so clearly laid out and unambiguous, where people with AS tend to show a lack of empathy.
I just keep seeing people talking about autism and asperger's in a way that takes certain symptoms, and assumes they exist in every situation regardless of.. anything. There are reasons for all our quirks, and there are plenty of situations where the quirks don't manifest because there's no reason for them to, and of course a lack of anything happening rarely is noticed as something relevant from an outside perspective.
Again I think you misunderstand me. That one incident in 'Ariel' was just ONE example of Simon's use of empathy. He is easily able to do so in many situations. One can tell by his facial expressions, his tone of voice, and what he says to others.
Like you said, not all individuals with Asperger's behave in the same manner in every situation. Situations are different, there are new experiences and things that have been learned, etc. I've never said that ALL Asperger's people act the same way or have the same symptoms. I've merely pointed out the diagnostic critera for Asperger's as indiciated in the DSM-IV and refuted those criteria based on Simon's behavior. Perhaps because I only gave one example of refuting behaviors, you think that that's the only one I could come up with. Please believe me when I say that Simon's patterns of behavior indicate that he does not fit the criteria for Asperger's.
I really feel as if you are arguing about one tiny detail and missing the bigger picture here. The REAL point I am trying to make is that Simon does NOT consistently meet the criteria for Asperger's, as I've said numerous times now.
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I love my Captain
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miku:
"
I just keep seeing people talking about autism and asperger's in a way that takes certain symptoms, and assumes they exist in every situation regardless of.. anything. There are reasons for all our quirks, and there are plenty of situations where the quirks don't manifest because there's no reason for them to, and of course a lack of anything happening rarely is noticed as something relevant from an outside perspective.
EDIT: For clarification, I'm not trying to argue that Simon has Asperger's right now; Just have some minor issues with some people's means of deciding he doesn't.
Are you saying that you take issue with people saying that Simon doesn't have Asperger's because he doesn't display the symptoms?
~lissa, retired spwhore
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