Space Combat
POSTED BY: citizen
UPDATED: Monday, May 22, 2006 21:09
VIEWED: 8604
PAGE 2 of 5
Quote:
Originally posted by j6ngo1977:
Citizen. Great game in the making is that. Ill back it all the way :) Im from the Silent Hunter 2 schoolof gameplaying. I love Sub games. As a comparison that sounds great :) I play Eve online and that uses Rail guns. In fact best guns in the game
I originally started thinking about this stuff in about 2000 when I had the idea for an animated on-line series charting an interstellar war from the points of view of members of the fleet and ground forces from both sides of the conflict. It kind of slipped in the mean-time, but Battlestar Galactica and FireFly have rekindled my interest. You see my idea had a lot of similarities to both, for instance no Aliens, something I wasn't sure could work at the time, but I didn't see the need. Jump based FTL like Battlestar, hard sci-fi, much like both FireFly (in it's own little way) and Battlestar.
I also thought about doing it as an online multiplayer game, since you could have teams where one player controlled the space battle, another player the land battle. The key to success would be to coordinate the land and space conflicts.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I've always been a fan of the (pre-thud) Andromeda style of space combat:
Slipstream (basically wormholes, with a few Heisenberger effects) allows travel between solar systems (meaning that, while battles aren't technically "interstellar," they aren't exactly in close orbit either). You drop out of slipstream somewhere around Neptune, then motor for an hour to reach Earth. Slip-routes are tied to the stars, so stellar drift isn't really a factor (well, technically it's just that the slip-points are moving at the same rate as everything else).
Battles are fought beyond visual range, with ranges measured in light-seconds, light-minutes, and even light-hours. Communications work at lightspeed, but Andromeda seems to have some sort of low-res FTL sensors (she can "detect" things but be unable to get a good "look" at them due to ECM stealth [which, of course, wouldn't affect visible light]). Speeds are measured in PSL (percent of lightspeed) --there's time dilation, but it tends to be so minor (and battles so short) that it's easily shrugged off (and ship's time rarely aligns with local planet-time anyway). Ships deploy sensor drones to triangulate and calculate range (and to check external damage), and fighter drones serve as an unmanned fighter screen against incoming threats.
Starfighters are useful for swift strike-and-fade attacks that need more accuracy and a wider variety of ordnance than can be handled by long-range strikes. With their own ECM packages, they're harder to hit than larger ships. They also tend to have organic pilots (though they can be remote-piloted at closer ranges), who are mostly immune to ECM. Admittedly, this presupposes that the fighters carry sufficient fuel, and Andromeda's fighters are slipstream-capable (not sure if the fighter-sized slipstream drives are in common use in the Long Night).
Of course, Andromeda carries her own refineries, so fuel isn't really a factor for her or her support craft, as long as there are asteroids to eat and gas-rich planetary atmospheres and nebulae to "drink."
There's a wide array of AI-guided missiles to chose from for offensive weapons (ranging from nukes to kinetics to scatter-shot to plot-device-equipped warheads 
). Laser/plasma projectile technology exists, but it's close range only, so it's only really usable as Point-Defense Lasers to shoot down incoming warheads. There's also a variety of electronic countermeasures, including stealth [against targetting systems], jamming [against guidance systems], disabling [against control systems], and decoys [using drones that "look" like the mothership]).
The most deadly projectiles are PSPs --Point Singularity Projectiles. Basically tiny (2-3 millimetre) artificial black holes, they'll seek out the largest mass along their vector, and then will rip right through it (can't be jammed, can't be shot down, can barely be dodged, if you have a very skilled pilot and a hair-trigger helm), possibly coming back if the target's mass is high enough. Fire one at a planet, and the entire rock will be rendered uninhabitable (a portion of the planet will be sucked up until the PSP reaches critical mass and detonates, probably not before reaching the planet's core. Planetquakes rock the world, the atmosphere gets shredded, the magnetic field hiccups, possibly terminally, part of the crust collapses, and gravity drops by a fraction). Of course, the people who use such weapons aren't really interested in conquering territory. As the planet's dying, they'd just swoop in and feast on the survivors.
-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I dunno, thinking about how objects react in space, battles would be a bad idea
The debris from these types of battles would probably continue to travel in space, orbit planets, pick up speed and will most likely cause some damage to people or other objects at some point
The less junk the better IMO. We've already mucked up earth with war and technology, I hope we don't do the same to space
"Shake your head boy, your eyes are stuck"
www.fireflyfans.net
http://www.browncoatsriseagain.com
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Mercury002:
Reavers are different and they just drift out into space unlike the navy how you explain that?
Huh?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
What a great thread!!!
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
the resolution of the battle will begin and end with targeting solution.
I agree with this. I also agree with Citizen's comments about the fleet being used to achieve and maintain 'space superiority'. All the actual goals and interesting stuff is planetary.
I can see all the battles happening in proximity to planets and moons, and deep space being used for hiding, staging, etc. I don't see how deep space is patrollable at all. Note that this could include space inside the solar system but outside of the orbital plane.
I also agree with Finn's comments about AI fleets. Personally I think that level of AI is not too far at all, and five minutes later the AI begins to surpass us quite fast, especially in tactics/ 3D visualization, etc. The human brain is just not setup for contemplating the distances/ speeds/ bearings/ and technological limitations as well. Yep, unmanned ships with 30g's of thrust.
Keeping in mind AI aiming and that there is no drag or gravitational drop to slow down a bullet (ever), I see ranges being QUITE long, hundreds of thousands of miles or more. Far enough that EM radiation takes a measurable amount of time. I'm not sure if detection will be due to RADAR, LADAR, visible spectrum vision, or all of the above. Either way, the trick will be who spots who first; then fires the deadly shot(s) and starts evasive manuevers while waiting for the shot to hit.
Missiles and guns both seem too slow. Something that moves at or near the speed of light is crucial. That means lasers or possibly rail guns. This is so the enemy will become aware of you about the same moment the deadly first shots arrive on target. Some slight scatter and/or multiple rapid succession shots would be helpful, to negate the enemies' evasive manuevers.
The scenario I keep seeing (make it go away!) is a 300-ft automated patrol craft jumps into system in the distant shadow of a gas giant. It immediately starts a rapid scanning algorithm with high resolution optics. Twenty minutes later (a lot of sky to look at) it finds an enemy craft 200,000 mi away. It fires 100 shots in under two seconds with pinpoint accuracy and a projected spread of two hundred feet (requires VERY precise gun turret motors). It begins randomly firing thrusters to evade a possible attack launched minutes ago. Minutes later, the enemy gets obliterated, having never seen the patrol craft at all.
"It's a cow."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
You all might really enjoy the "Crest of the Stars/ Banner of the Stars" anime available. Especially you, Cybersnark!! Fantastic fleet battles that utilize technology really well. Start with Crest o' Stars, and give it at least five episodes.
"It's a cow."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I agree with Aussay that space battles would be a bad idea, simply because of how expensive and fragile any "warships" would be. If there was, say, an interstellar war, Here's how I think it would be fought:
1) missiles would bombard the orbital defenses before an invasion force arrives(they could be launched from one system to another STL or FTL, whatever works).
2) Troop transports arrive. They would carry minimal weaponry (probably just point defense lasers in case all the orbital defenses weren't destroyed) and would proceed to release dropships carrying soldiers, tanks, planes, etc...
3) At the same time as the troopships are arriving, large transports carrying orbital batteries would seed the planet's orbit, both securing the planet and providing a platform to support the invasion army with orbital recon and bombardment.
4) The primary weapons would be missiles, railguns(only carried by the defense platforms because of their size and unweildy nature), and point defense lasers.
5) There wouldn't be any "warships". The primary fighting platform in space would be orbital defense batteries. All decisive battles would be fought on the ground or in the air of a planet.
Just my thoughts on the matter 
...
You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I disagree entirely; once mankind reaches that technological level, we will have, as Jean-Luc says, evolved beyond that (war).
Originally posted by Sickdude:Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
the resolution of the battle will begin and end with targeting solution.
I agree with this. I also agree with Citizen's comments about the fleet being used to achieve and maintain 'space superiority'.
Upbeat Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SickDude:
Personally I think that level of AI is not too far at all, and five minutes later the AI begins to surpass us quite fast, especially in tactics/ 3D visualization, etc.
I disagree. No computer can even really think to the standard of stupid animals. All current AI does is operate clever Human written algorithms to make it appear like they're thinking. They're not, not really. I think true thinking AI is a long, long way off, and I doubt it'll be running on anything we know of or recognise as a computer.
In fact that's another reason why I like the new BSG, the robot enemies are bio-engineered, including the ships. I think growing a brain for your spaceship is the way forward.
Though I do see AI taking a pivotal roll. Ships will be largely automated. For instance if the ships computer picks up an incoming missile it will launch countermeasures and evade automatically, but it will be the crew that decides the strategy/tactics employed in the battle.
Quote:
Missiles and guns both seem too slow. Something that moves at or near the speed of light is crucial. That means lasers or possibly rail guns. This is so the enemy will become aware of you about the same moment the deadly first shots arrive on target. Some slight scatter and/or multiple rapid succession shots would be helpful, to negate the enemies' evasive manuevers.
My thinking as too why missiles will be the main weapon is simple: You can fire a missile and put it in the rough area of where the target will be for intercept, then you let the missile make the intercept itself, i.e. from your end aiming is much easier, no hitting a dot 1000's of miles away.
Also a DEW loses energy at an exponential rate. A weapon that'll blow a hole in hull plating at 10,000 miles might, at best, fry electronics at a 100,000. Also a ship can manoeuvre to let the beam play over more of the ships surface, reducing it's effectiveness. Conversely a missile is as deadly close up as it is at long range.
I don't think, simply due to detection and weapon limitations, confrontations will happen at extreme range, and as I indicated earlier personally I think it would mainly happen in the orbital space of a planet. In that circumstances the relative slow moving missiles will still intercept a target in seconds, and the AI guidance, allowing the missile to get the best intercept vector and decide what a countermeasure is and what is the ship.
Also it's a lot easier to defend against DEWs. You can have heat conducting layers that will massively reduce their effectiveness; electromagnetic fields can also be deployed to 'bend' a beam around the ship, at least in the case of Particle Accelerators. Likewise a ship could vent gas or fine particulate matter between itself and the attacker, which would cause thermal blooming and scatter the beam.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
I disagree entirely; once mankind reaches that technological level, we will have, as Jean-Luc says, evolved beyond that (war).
Or in the words of GWB Jnr jnr jnr jnr:
"Let's bomb terrorworld!"
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME