Space Combat

POSTED BY: citizen
UPDATED: Monday, May 22, 2006 21:09
VIEWED: 8604
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CHRISISALL

Friday, April 14, 2006 7:17 PM

Why do I sense a really LONG and tediously link-filled response from Piratenews on actual space combat being waged on us as we speak from Alien-Jew Space-Nazis comming?
*shudders*

Chrisisall

REAVERMAN

Friday, April 14, 2006 7:24 PM

Don't forget the British-Commie-Alien-Jews, dude! They're even worse!

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

CYBERSNARK

Friday, April 14, 2006 11:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I disagree entirely; once mankind reaches that technological level, we will have, as Jean-Luc says, evolved beyond that (war).

Yes, yes we will.

Pity the Borg/Jem'Hadar/Xindi/Romulans/Cardassians/Whoever-the-hell-else-is-out-there haven't.

*Remembers Captain Archer's naively hopeful comment about not needing weapons in Klingon space*

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

SICKDUDE

Saturday, April 15, 2006 5:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
they'd just swoop in and feast on the survivors.

Mmmmmm... survivors..... *slobber*

Cybersnark, I've been meaning to compliment you on your fantastic descriptions of the Andromeda Ascendant (BTW, why is it "Rommie" instead of "the Ass"? Nevermind, I think I know

) in the last few 'favorite ship' threads. Based on your descriptions, I think it is the best SF warship, with the possible exception of the Battlestars (the newer ones, not the Bucket). And I totally agree with your mention of light minutes and PSL.

Relatedly, I've always believed in fully outfitting expeditionary or exploratory ships. What is the purpose of going light years just to find out you need another flashlight, can opener, or bulldozer?! That's why I like the Invincible (from the out-of-print book by Stainslaw Lem), the Sulaco (from Aliens), and even the ship from Forbidden Planet. However, warships would probably be much more specialized, with the emphasis on building enough of them so they have a chance of encountering the enemy and being useful.

Reaverman, I agree that spaceships would be extremely fragile. But that leads me to the opposite conclusion. Which would be better: to take out ten thousand troops on the ground or take them out all at once in orbit when they are so vulnerable? That leads to orbital defenses, which leads to escorts to clear out orbital defenses, which leads to heavier ships in orbit, and so on. In no time at all, we're talking space battles to clear the way for a ground invasion.

I've always seen weapons technology as being in a cycle of improved defense leading to improved weaponry leading to improved mobility leading back to improved defenses. Obviously, without knowing exactly what technologies we are talking about, we can't make accurate predictions. However, we seem to all agree on some basics: no dogfighting, a lot of automation, very little deep space battles, etc.

And yes, Citizen, missiles may work. My main point is that if the hit wasn't delivered fast, the defender would counter it. And goodness knows a bullet would take a long time to go thousands of miles. However, missiles do continually accelerate...

I don't see mines as being effective, mostly due to the size of space to be covered. Mines only work here because they can be hidden, and even then they are mostly to demoralize and slow down an enemy, not inflict kills.

"It's a cow."

SICKDUDE

Saturday, April 15, 2006 6:08 PM

As to long range versus short range:
Let us consider two ships, both capable of either mode of fighting. Also, let's dismiss the case of one jumping out from behind an asteroid at very close range and saying Boo! Now, with computerized aiming, fine tuned actuators, long barrel lengths, no gravitational drop, no "turbulence" in space (just Newtonian straight lines), and no wind or outside interference, trajectories are really straight and really long. How far away could that ship be to hit something, say, half the size of a football field? Also, things move relatively slow, and do not suddenly get from point A to point B; it takes, what 15 minutes to get into orbit? Similarly, things can be seen at huge distances. It's mostly a matter of finding a needle in the haystack. In other words, things will be exposed and vulnerable for a longtime. Thus, the ship who spots the enemy and fires first wins. Therefore, the designers are going to put a lot of emphasis on helping this along. Things like many multidirectional sensor arrays that work real fast. They will build a rapidly scanning and accurate firing ship that clean and control a large volume of space. Any ship that needs to get close won't last, short of relying on the asteroid-boo manuever.

"It's a cow."

CITIZEN

Saturday, April 15, 2006 6:31 PM

In the case of DEWs they have a finite range due to energy loss at range. As for kinetic weapons they have an accuracy built in that goes beyond who is aiming them. Even if you have the perfect aiming system and nothing to knock the shell of course it still won't end up where you want it.

The further the range the bigger the divergence.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

FREELANCEPILOT

Saturday, April 15, 2006 10:40 PM

I always saw space battles being a variation to naval combat in the modern age.

It is pretty safe to assume laser weapons shall be used in space combat. As sci fi as this may seem, the United States Airforce has already began experimenting with the concept as they have a boeing 747 with a laser capable of destroying an ICBM. The weapon needs to be miniturized a bit, but the progression is coming.

The guided missile would be a pretty bad weapon against a spaceship. If the combat happens in a comparable range as naval combat, the use of a Vulcan Anti-missile cannon would be used. This automated weapon destroys missiles going after an aircraft carriers. Ever see Sum of All Fears? Like that, but more accurate. It probably would not have missed the few missiles that hit. It is an incredibly effective weapon.

The use of nuclear weapons in space is an option. However, with the immense blast radius of the weapons in space, it would be dangerous to fire it unless your enemy didn't have long range (i.e. laser) vulcan cannons to destory the weapon. Now you can do the same thing that the subs do, and arm the torpedoes only after a certain distance, but the prospect of those weapons being destoryed at close range to your ship (even if an unarmed, non-exploding device) would waste a weapon.

I think fighters can be used, as short ranged, fuel laiden, ships. Yes, fuel will be a problem, but quick, manuverable fighters would have a chance to slip past anti-aircraft weapons.
PLus you can create nuclear powered craft. Subs are nuclear powered now, but could miniturize it. Perhaps, larger than the modern f-18, but still comparable.
The use of Un-Manned Vehicles would grow in prominence. There is a significant difference in AI to human fighters. ask any military officer, which i have, and all have stated they would not like a totally AI fighter. Rather, like the predator, and unmanned, remote control fighter.

I don't believe that the space craft would only be able to take a single hit. THe Los Angelos class submarine is apartmentalized. The LA class Sub can take a direct hit, even a hull rupture and survive. The Compartment would shut off, and all in that section of the ship would die, but the rest of the ship would be able to limp back to port, depending on the section hit. The size and nature of the ship would be similar, and able to shut off compartments from explosion. Remember, there are no shockwaves or fire in space. so the damage would be a little different in space.

Rail cannons are already in existance too. I have seen it. It is pretty sweet. It rammed through a steel plate. It could be used in space as well.

Shields, however, are not as far away from reality than you might think. I have seen the developement of certain gas containment fields (able to use in a vacuum). So stating certain magnetic fields, set to repulse certain things (like rail fire) could be developed. Whether or not they will, is the question. Also, you could flow plasma around a ship to incinerate objects. You couldn't fire any weapons from within the plasma field, but it would provide protections.

Anyway, this comes from my friends (who are scientists), my family (who are military), and my own research as a mini-clancy (i am a huge clancy fan).

By the way, my brother in Military Counter Intelligence says, "Don't forget those damn terrorists... In SPACE!"

Wash: Yeah, but psychic? That sounds like science fiction.
Zoë: You live on a spaceship, dear.
Wash: So?

STAKETHELURK

Saturday, April 15, 2006 11:53 PM

Freelancepilot has already questioned the efficacy of using missiles in space combat, due to the possibility of accurate anti-missile defenses. I have another question regarding the possibility of using missiles in such an environment.

Earlier in the thread, the use of small, manned fighters was dismissed because the fuel costs were seen as too prohibitive. Wouldn’t the same limitations on fuel also apply to using missiles in space, especially over dramatically long distances? The advantage of a missile over a kinetic weapon seems to be its ability to maneuver and correct course. Sickdude also mentioned the missile’s ability to continually accelerate. But such maneuvers require expenditure of fuel; why wouldn’t the same fuel constraints that apply fighters apply to missiles?

CITIZEN

Sunday, April 16, 2006 2:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FreelancePilot:
It is pretty safe to assume laser weapons shall be used in space combat. As sci fi as this may seem, the United States Airforce has already began experimenting with the concept as they have a boeing 747 with a laser capable of destroying an ICBM. The weapon needs to be miniturized a bit, but the progression is coming.

I don't think the weapon you’re talking about is all you say it is:

Quote:
The laser doesn't have to melt through an enemy missile's metal skin to kill it. The beam only has to weaken the missile's exterior, the Air Force believes; the projectile's speed and pressure exerted on it should finish the job.

"What we're out to accomplish is ... weakening the metal," said Capt. Eric Moomey of the U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory. "We intend to cause a rupture from within the rocket."

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/01/12/airborne.laser/index.html

Quote:
The guided missile would be a pretty bad weapon against a spaceship. If the combat happens in a comparable range as naval combat, the use of a Vulcan Anti-missile cannon would be used. This automated weapon destroys missiles going after an aircraft carriers. Ever see Sum of All Fears? Like that, but more accurate. It probably would not have missed the few missiles that hit. It is an incredibly effective weapon.

Those anti missile weapons are nowhere near as good as you make them out to be. If they were no one would bother using anti ship missiles any more. The exercet is still in use and that was sinking ships in the early 80's

.

Now it's a funny thing about military tech, when someone builds a better missile defence system, someone else builds a better missile to get past it.

Quote:
The use of nuclear weapons in space is an option. However, with the immense blast radius of the weapons in space, it would be dangerous to fire it unless your enemy didn't have long range (i.e. laser) vulcan cannons to destory the weapon. Now you can do the same thing that the subs do, and arm the torpedoes only after a certain distance, but the prospect of those weapons being destoryed at close range to your ship (even if an unarmed, non-exploding device) would waste a weapon.

You really don't need them. Using a nuke to destroy a space craft would be like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Sure it'll work but you'll wreck your table to, and a nut cracker is easier and really more effective.

Quote:
I think fighters can be used, as short ranged, fuel laiden, ships. Yes, fuel will be a problem, but quick, manuverable fighters would have a chance to slip past anti-aircraft weapons.

So a Fighter can get through point defence but a faster smaller more agile missile can't?

Quote:
PLus you can create nuclear powered craft. Subs are nuclear powered now, but could miniturize it.

And how would these ships move? Nuclear power isn't a magic wand; a sub works because the nuclear reactor creates electricity which is used to drive an electric motor that turns the prop shaft. The only 'electric motor' for space is really the Ion engine, which won't give you the acceleration or agility you want.

Quote:
I don't believe that the space craft would only be able to take a single hit. THe Los Angelos class submarine is apartmentalized. The LA class Sub can take a direct hit, even a hull rupture and survive.

If a Los Angeles-class attack sub was hit by a torpedo, even one, it would at the very least sink, probably implode, especially if it was submerged. Doesn't matter how many compartments it's got.

Furthermore the amount of energy that would be inherent in space-borne weapons just simply out strips anything conceivable material technology can sustain.

Quote:
The size and nature of the ship would be similar, and able to shut off compartments from explosion. Remember, there are no shockwaves or fire in space.

Fire burns with oxygen, there's oxygen inside spaceships. There is also shockwaves, in so much as when you get a

ZISKER

Sunday, April 16, 2006 3:45 AM

Be that as it may . . .

(Yes, science makes dog-fighting impractical and near impossible in space and the reality of the situation gets in the way of all Star Wars/BSG etc scenarios)

I still want Sci-Fi shows and movies to have the awesome space spectacles. I want to dream that I could take off in my Y-Wing and blow a few squints and eyeballs to kingdom come.

Besides, we're an impractical species. And we're war-like. Maybe we'll find a way.

Fruit's Oaty Bar! Is a person from the mouse! Fruit's Oaty Bar! Makes your bust from yours female shirt! Continuously eats them! Let them cause you to be surprised!

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