Abandoned by Heaven
POSTED BY: zzetta13
UPDATED: Friday, April 14, 2006 10:27
VIEWED: 8751
PAGE 4 of 4
WARNING -- bit of a long rant about to follow... Nothin' personal nor meaning to offend... just some pent-up thoughts on a spiritual bent...
Somewhere in the commentaries on the series -- for "Objects in Space" I believe -- Joss talks about "finding" his world-view after reading an existentialist writer, Jean Paul Sartre, I think. Because Joss comes from a TV writer family I'm guessing his ancestry is Jewish -- not anti-semitic mind you, just making an obvious statement -- Hollywood film & TV shows have been, from Hollywood's inception as an industry, predominantly written, directed & produced by people of Jewish ancestry. And a lot of these Jewish people are not the highly religious types, more the secular humanist type. And as many can surmise a lot of Jewish surivors of the Holocaust lost their faith in God.
Where's all this going?
Well, if Firefly had aired 15 or 25 years ago, I would have held a pretty similar outlook as Mal / Joss -- since Joss wrote most of who Mal is, it's really Joss' philosophical outlook we're seeing through Mal. Point being? Mal's discarding of his "faith" is actually a quite shallow expression of "blaming God" for the failures of mankind.
I was guilty of this growing up based on events in my own life -- being blinded in one eye shortly after birth due to prematurity and medical practices in the early 1960s, my mom dying of brain cancer when I was 7, my Dad splitting when I was 12 -- so I went the Eastern religion way, got into Zen, Taoism, etc.
I was never truly atheistic, just never bought the "opiate of the masses" as I perceived it back in my 20s. Wasn't til I studied Islam (Ahmadiyyat) that God in the monotheistic "Father" figure vein made any kind of sense. God talks to us in ways we can relate to, and each culture / ethnic region was given a "picture" of God that made sense to them for what they needed. So what makes it kinda hard for me in watching Firefly / BDM is seeing such a one-dimensional presentation of God in Joss's 'Verse.
I've got that quote from the Holy Quran at the top of my posts cuz that's the most direct verse about the nature of extra-terrestrial life in the Universe and God's role in everything. And that's not even a smidgeon of what's actually in the Book! It talks about embryonic development [once you understand the Arabic medically] in such amazingly detailed descriptions as to boggle the mind. The Quran describes the revolution of planetary bodies on their axis while moving in elliptical orbits as well as manned spaceflight.
The Quran talks about sub-atomic particles, plate tectonics, the effects of nuclear fission, left-handed molecular spin, an expanding/contracting cyclical universe, the development of all life from water and the evolution of life in stages from ocean to land, the geological nature of mountains being embedded into the ground like pegs, which they are. The list and examples go on and on. All this without my even touching on the spiritual elements as "proofs" cuz I fugure with Sci-Fi fans, maybe the sciency stuff will get your interest. But the spiritual stuff is way more impressive once you see the bigger picture that Islam really presents, and not the yahoo terrorist stuff that's being foisted off by a lot of right-wing Christians, Fox News watchers and the Bushites as the Real Islam, which it ain't.
Don't mean to be preachin' and my apologies if I offend, but if Browncoats are anything at all like me, which I figure a decent percentage must be 'cuz I conjure myself one, they are free-thinkers and willing to respect a person's right to hold an opinion. Especially if they can defend it, and that is one thing I am willing and able to do -- cuz I came from where Joss kinda still is, and I believe I can see not only his POV but why it doesn't provide any real solutions or answers.
Mal's character is so unrooted and groundless spiritually speaking as a direct result of Joss' worldview. Sure, makes for a great "tortured" soul / loner type with serious emotional, trust & commitment issues and that makes for great dra
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Quote:
Originally posted by JayTee:
I think Mal's reference to "angels" in the Serenity Valley scene in the pilot was a reference to the Independents air support and not to angels in the biblical sense.
Jaytee
I know that. I'm a Browncoat, after all, I'm pretty smart. Just the fact that he was using the word was very important. Angels were going to resue them. The way someone uses languange says a lot about them; both in the real world and well-written fiction.
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Bible's broken. Doesn't make sense.
Zhu fu ni, mei-mei
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I know it doesn't come through very clearly in the series or the movie, but I had always assumed that Christianity and Buddhism were the two main religions. There are a lot of churches on the border moons, and Buddha statues seem to pop up everywhere too.
What surprised me initially was that Christianity only seemed to show up on the more "backward" planets. You don't get a lot of religion on the core worlds (that we've seen so far, anyway) but it's little places like Haven that seem much more Christian. At first I thought this was a commentary on the religion itself, but having listened to Joss' commentary on the movie I think I get why this happens.
One of the things Joss mentions is that the border planets don't have all the benefits of the core worlds, and he mentions freedom of religion as one of those benefits. However, he says that despite their shortcomings the border planets still want the freedom to do things their way without interference, and it's pretty clear that that's the side Joss shows sympathy for. I think the difference in the two faiths on the show helps illustrate that point of view.
From what little I know of it, Buddhism is pretty inclusive. I think some people even shy from calling it a religion, preferring to think of it as a philosophy. Christianity is the opposite. It's one path, based on one God with a pretty strict set of rules (even if the different branches disagree on what they are.) That sort of sums up the border plantes themselves. They do things their way, to their rules, and don't plan on accomadating any meddling Alliance.
Now that's a ~very~ simplistic view on ~both~ religions, and I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I think that's what the religions on the show are used for. Any Buddhists about who can let me know if I'm barking up the wrong Dharma Wheel?
Desktop Hippie: at one with the 'verse
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Well, yeah, it's simplified, but you've got a pretty good take on Buddhism, really. "Tao" actually means "way" so it's just about finding the way. Very internal. Very personal. At least it is for me. But it can be called a "religion" because it is about the spirit. It can also be called a personal philosophy, I suppose. I call it spirituality myself.
And there are Buddha statues, but no one acts calm or at peace or contemplative at all, which is why I ask about it. (shiny side note: Ron Glass is a Buddhist, which is maybe why Book seems so... at peace most of the time. despite his troubled past.)
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Bible's broken. Doesn't make sense.
Zhu fu ni, mei-mei
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Ok browncoats I'm bumping this post up because of the very interesting writting thats come up.
First,Kudos to MAGHAFFAR I enjoyed reading your post. It enlightened me.
I will try not to make this to long...but
Now about Firefly and Malcolm Reynolds.
Shepherd Book in Serenity before his death says "Just believe..." or "Just believe in it."
Had he been able to continue I feel his spoken words would have had the flavor of, just believe in something good,or somthing of goodness or positve.
Book just wanted Mal to be rid of his darkness. The serenity crew is a family. This is affirmed when Mal and Jayne are face to face at the airlock on Serenity after the medical endeaver on Ariel. Mal " You do it to any one of my crew, you do it to me!!!"
Mals "Family" on board ship are the only good things he feels he has left. He is the "FATHER". There to safeguard his fold. He felt the same way about his soldiers in Serenity Valley.
The mention of ANGELS in the tv pilot is a direct connection to heaven and also why I posted the title of the thread "Abandoned by Heaven" and not " Abandoned by God"
Joss and the other witters of Firefly may write some of the humor of Serenity quickly and by the seat of their pants. But when it comes to the religious and spiritual aspect of the show the writting of these parts are well thought out before penned.
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I must say, even as a Christian, I am truly enjoying reading this thread. It is amazing that all of us, despite our religious and philosophical beliefs, can gather to express our ideas without fear of persecution. I hope y'all won't mind if a young country boy throws in his two cents (and please forgive me if this comes out really long).
Just to give y'all some background on my personal beliefs, yes I am a Christian but I've definitely changed my viewpoints from when I was younger. I also wanna take this chance to apologize to y'all of varying faiths that may have come under persecution from more close-minded Christians than myself because those type of Christians piss me off too. Anyways, I was raised in a fairly conservative environment and brought up in a traditional Southern Baptist church. I didn't drink, smoke, curse, or do anything "wrong". Yes, I was considered a Bible thumper probably and to be honest I wasn't really happy. But about 2 years ago, when I started my college years my views really changed. I can't point to a specific incident but my faith was really rocked, much like Mal's was.
I think that's the thing that pulled me in the most about Firefly was seeing a character who reflected some of the emotions I was/am feeling. My take on Mal's faith is that some part of him still holds onto his beliefs before losing the war. He's a good man, despite his rough and tough exterior. He still has some hope for good in his life, and generally that hope comes from his "family" on Serenity. I can't see Mal as a man without any faith or hope because if that were the case, what's to keep him from becoming a Reaver or just blowing the back of his head off in despair? Who knows if he will ever return to his original faith, and even if he does I'm sure it will be skewed somewhat by the events that have taken place in his life. My hope is to see Mal find some true serenity (forgive the pun) in his life and be able to come to terms with some of the losses in his life.
Thanks for lettin me share my story and I hope to hear some replies from y'all soon enough.
Keep flyin'.
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This thread is very, very good.
Faith is (or would have been) a huge underlying theme in FF. The dualism of Christianity/Eastern religions existing seemingly without conflict (or at least on board the ship; cf the tranquility of the Book/Inara exchange about praying for Mal)would seem to negate the particularities of religion: the basic fact of belief is the key.
My memory is quite fuzzy on existentialism (A level French Lit, anyone?). But the emphasis Sartre placed on the act - 'l'engagement' - and even more importantly, the ACCEPTANCE of the need to act is, to me, the absolute theme of Serenity.
In 'Objects in Space' River's insight into Mal is that 'none of it matters a damn'. Existence is survival. In a sense, living so close to the margin makes that easy. It's when confronted with decisions that have long term implications that problems arise :cf relationship with Inara in FF/the decision to bring River back to the ship in BDM, which goes against every aspect of the sterile utilitarian philosophy that Mal lives under.
The problem with Mal is that this utilitarianism is set at odds with his innate morality. In the absence of a closer self examination, this equates to his loyalty to his crew above all. (There's a really eloquent thread about this another discussion board that examines this with great elegance.)
Faith in something greater? Only when he decides to engage. To fight another war. Faith in humanity? He can't resist it.
I hope he never resolves this issue, or loses the bitterness, mind you. Makes for magnificent viewing.
My muscular buttocks, I don't think I've engaged my brain like that for about 2 years. I think I may have strained something.
x
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I just wanted to kind of remind people, that in spite of what Joss Whedon's religious views are, I don't think he is imposing those (specifically) on Mal.
Joss has said many times that Mal is much more conservative politically than he, Joss is. Mal is very much and independent/libertarian type who does not want Government's interference for good or bad...
So similarly, Mal has rejected God - not because Joss thinks that that is a correct response -- but because of his experiences in the war. Mal could easily regain his faith... Or not. He is a complex character who can actually grown and change in a lot of different ways.
I'm just waiting for future comics, and eventually our Big Damn Sequel, so I can find out what is going to happen next!
I have really enjoyed everyone's posts....
Oh yeah, I wanted to say about Buddhism: I think we didn't meet a lot of Buddhists for the same reason we haven't met a lot of Asian characters: because the show ended before Joss really had a chance to fully develop this 'verse. I'm hoping for much more in the future... (if I live so long)
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watch the R. Tam Session vids: http://www.hittarivertam.nu/
and buy the 'Serenity' comics published by Dark Horse
have you checked out this thread?:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=15816
and listen to 'I'm Going To See Serenity':
http://music.podshow.com/music/listeners/artistdetails.php?BandHash=a0
c814e1229742ce77ed4497cbf4631c
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Hey, I was talking to my dad about this whole discusion and he told me that he's seen some Buddhist iconography in Mal's bunk. One was a statue, and one was a print that he's pretty sure is the Five Families. It was very blurred, though. I guess he tried to freeze it and couldn't be absolutely sure, but he's been a Buddhist for many years and he's pretty sure.
So maybe Mal did have religion all along. Maybe didn't practice regular and didn't wear anything around his neck, but it was there.
Then again, maybe it was just knick-knacks by the prop people to make the space look like Asian fusion, but they're usually very exacting on the details.
Anyway, I thought that was interesting.
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Bible's broken. Doesn't make sense.
Zhu fu ni, mei-mei
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