Illegal immigration
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 22, 2026 17:49
VIEWED: 84088
PAGE 5 of 34
Quote:Speak for yourself. I studied Okinawan Kempo, and faced those jerks down, beat on a few when I had to.
Originally posted by Hero:
Nobody heard from the smaller kids, the freshman, or the meek. They just stood in line and took it.
H
But this isn't about bullies, it's about peeps looking to live. Maybe eat sometime this month. Maybe escape the poverty forced on them by this world.
If you, yourself, had ever been in a position of having to do something illegal to feed youself or your family, I might even take some of what you have to say on this matter seriously.
Attack the money-men, and the reasons for our failing economy, not the poor.
Oh. That's right. We can't do that.
Okay, let's pick on the weak, that's easier.
Uh-oh. Hero brings out the 'L' in Chrisisall
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Quote:Fletch, the difference is those people like yourself can afford to wait, and aren't starving. You had a choice, others feel they have none- go to where you CAN work, or lose your family.
Originally posted by Fletch2:
I believe Hero's point is that there are people that follow the rules and wait for years to legally enter the country.
(Not sayin' let EVERYBODY in- just tryin' to see it from a perspective other than my own)
Bored rich liberal white guy Chrisisall
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*I* could afford to wait, there are others in desperate situations that can't but have to follow the rules because geography hasn't given them a common border with the US.
It's true there are people that steal because they are starving, but then there are people that would steal just because they can and others that won't steal even if they were starving. Who is more worthy of reward, the person that follows the rules even if it hurts him or the one that ignores those that are inconvenient.
I am sure there are folks waiting in subsaharan Africa for a green card allocation that are just as hungry and as desperate as anyone you could find in Mexico. I'm sure the Coyotes, the folks that make a very profitable business smuggling people are not cruising the alleys of Mexico city looking for folks that are needy. They take the ones that can pay, so I somehow doubt these folks are starving.
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When my grandparents came over to the US from Cuba, my parents were of elementary school/junior-high school age.
In order to immigrate, My grandfathers had to prove that they had a basic understanding of English, show that they had 1,000 dollars in a US bank, and have a job waiting for them. I hesitate to imagine what 1,000 dollars back then (50's) equates to now. I know my grandfathers had to borrow a lot of money from friends and family to get that sum together.
Castro wasn't running Cuba at the time. My grandparents weren't fleeing the government or anything. They had jobs and houses in Cuba. (My mother's father worked for the Nicaro Nickel Company, a US mining corp in Cuba.) But they wanted to be Americans. They considered the United States to be the best place on Earth, and were prepared to sacrifice to be a part of it. They encouraged their children to learn English, and to love their new country.
After my grandparents immigrated, my Dad had a severe eye injury. He was flown to Cuba for surgery. (If you can believe it, the best eye hospital around was in Cuba at the time.) While he was there, he saw these odd mountain men with scraggly beards and .45's. He heard an officer on the radio talk about how people had been arrested as traitors to Castro, but once Castro heard about it, he was sure it'd be taken care of. Then he heard that same officer shoot himself on the air when news came in that Castro had confirmed condemnation of the man as a traitor.
My Dad was sworn in as a citizen the day Kennedy was assasinated. They announced it right before everyone was sworn in. He was sure it was a loyalty test. When he found out it was true, he was shattered. Totally shattered. It was like being told that God died. Well, maybe not quite, but close. The US president was held in reverence by many Americans at the time. Not so much anymore.
My Dad volounteered to join the Air Force when Vietnam was rolling. (Better than the infantry, he figured.) He was denied due to an eye injury. He was also interrogated for two months, and made to take several lie detector tests. (Being of Cuban descent was considered a bad thing at the time, due to the Commie taint.) He didn't complain. He holds no real ill will about it, but will share his experiences as a humorous anecdote.
I was taught as a lad to love my government and to fear the coming Third World War, a Nuclear Holocaust with Russia and Communism as the villain. We were all awfully surprised when the Soviet Union collapsed. Movies from the year before had become obsolete. Now Hollywood had to find new bogeymen for their films. The Hunt for Red October suffered from this. Rambo III is just ironic now. Sneakers came out just after the collapse, and makes mention of the 'changes in Russia.'
Things are different now. You've maybe heard that most major cities have a Chinatown. A massive concentration of chinese citizens in a section of the city that resembles Hong Kong, with chinese signs and chinese language everywhere. I grew up in Hialeah, next to Miami, Florida. We had Little Havana, and it's overflowing into many parts of Miami-Dade county. Miles of Billboards and shop signs in Spanish. It's like being in another country.
People aren't coming to the U.S. from Cuba because they want to be 'Americans.' They just don't want to be in an oppressive environment. Fine. I wouldn't want to live in Cuba either. Or Mexico, for that matter. But the mindset has changed. It's not "I want to be an American" anymore. It's "I want to get what I can get." The sense that you owe something to the U.S. for the wonderful gifts it gives you has somehow been lost. Immigrants don't seem to be as grateful, on the average, as my grandparents were. It's gone from "Thank God for the United States" and "What Can I Do To Serve My Country" to "Where's my Benefits?" and "What Can You Do To Serve Me?"
And that's the kind of attitude, I think, that builds resentment in the indiginous popula
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REAVER RED DAWN - FOR REAL
Illiterate Mexicans need geography lessons
www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49482
Quote:
HERO wrote:
If an illegal immigrant marches in a protest, they should be arrested and sent home. If they want a drivers license, sure come on down to the BMV and get arrested and sent home. If they show up at a public school or health clinic, arrest them, send them home. Logistics is the reason we don't do these things...but that don't make it right.
So THAT'S why they call him Hero. It's ok if he plagerized my previous argument over his prosecutions of speeding tickets vs US citizens, while ignoring 40-million criminal aliens. Criminal aliens can't get traffic tickets, since courts lack subject matter jurisdiction without a voluntary driver license contract. That's why traffic citations include a section for the driver license number, which is an "essential element" of the victimless non-crime. That's why Tennessee govt sold 250,000 "driver certificates" to ILLEGAL aliens, to cash in on this fact of law. Copsters also love shaking down illegal aliens to steal all their cash and drugs, knowing the illiterate wetbacks will (almost) never file criminal charges. Some US sheriffs are now arresting ILLEGAL aliens for "criminal trespass", regardless of whether the feds deport them or not.
Quote:
"A few weeks ago, one of Chamberlain's officers came upon Jorge Mora Ramirez, who was making a phone call from his car. Questioned by the officer, Ramirez, a 21-year-old who is Mexican, admitted he was in the country illegally, Chamberlain said. The chief called Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers, but they declined to send someone over to pick up Ramirez. Chamberlain applied the only state statute he could think of. 'My position was: If Mr. Ramirez was in the country illegally, he was obviously in the town of New Ipswich illegally,' Chamberlain said. Police officers around the country have told Chamberlain that they plan to follow his example. Last week, Richard E. Gendron, the police chief in Hudson, N.H., cited two undocumented men for trespassing and said he intends to keep doing it."
-"How to arrest an illegal alien - N.H. Police Chief's Tactics Stira Storm on Immigration"
http://danielisright.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_danielisright_archive.htm
l
Attorney General Opinion 2000-1:
"There is substantial support for the position that the Penal Law and the Criminal Procedure Law, although explicitly referring only to state and local crimes, do not exclude federal crimes from the scope of authority granted to police officers and others to make warrantless arrests. New York State law enforcement officials may make arrests without warrants for criminal violations of the federal Immigration and Nationality Act. However, mere status as an alien, or even as an illegal alien, may only be a civil violation of the Act and thus would not be a sufficient basis for an arrest. For a valid arrest, the officer must have probable cause to believe that the person has committed a criminal violation of the INA, such as illegal entry into the United States, and not merely a civil violation, such as illegal presence in the country."
-Robert J. Cimino, County Attorney, County of Suffolk, Hauppauge, NY, March 21, 2000
www.oag.state.ny.us/lawyers/opinions/2000/informal/2000_1.html
Tennessee Code §40-7-109. Arrest by private person - Grounds.
(a) A private person may arrest another:
(1) For a public offense committed in the arresting person's presence;
(2) When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the arresting person's presence; or
(3) When a felony has been committed, and the arresting person has reasonable cause to believe that the person arrested committed it.
www.megalaw.com/tn/tncode.php
citizen's arrest.
: an arrest made not by a law officer but by any citizen who derives the authority to arrest from the fact of being a citizen
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phaedra:
I would like to thank Milagrobean, Jonus and Righteous9 for their additions to this thread. I've been watching this thread for the past two days with a growing sense of concern. Now just because we all enjoy the same show does not mean that we have to think the same way, but the discussion was a bit onesided. Takeaway the hispanic and substatute Irish, Chinese, or Jewish and we've seen these argumnets before and they're rarely pretty.
For the record I live in LA. I'm african-american and one of them fancy lawyers (so I come at this thread from a position of admitted privilege, I'd give a vital body part to see more people of chicano/latin heritage at my job). I was heading into the office on Saturday and got caught in the waves of people crammed into the metro. Asking around I learned that they were going to march. Later on I ditched out and joined them. Now granted I couldn't understand what many people were saying (languages hard) but I did understand the sentiment.
For me the marches represent what democracy should look and sound like. A group of people (citizen or not) mobilizing peacefully for their rights. Regardless of how one may feel about immigration, 500,000 marchers at one time sends a powerful message. The people who marched are our neighbors, coworkers, friends and fellow Americans. They deserve respect.
Phaedra (a bad luck name)
I'm not against immigration, but I am against illegal immigration, 500,000 people might send a powerful message if most of those people could vote, but since they are illegal they can't as you can see I highlighted illegal, I'm all for people standing up for their rights and democracy, but maybe 500,000 of those people should all go to Mexico and protest the conditions and their rights in their own country and try to make it better for them to live in so that they don't have to come here to get work, lets face it Mexico is a country rich in natural resources just as the United States is, but they've always been third world. Maybe the people their should stand up for their own country and make it a livable place.
I completely understand the desire to make a better life and I don't begrude anybody that, but I'm not going to screw myself in order to do it, I'm just going to be honest about it.
The fact of the matter is, we have our own government and Businesses outsourcing jobs, the compettion for decent jobs in this country is tough and its only going to get tougher, now days a college education is no garuntee for employment, We have illegals coming into the country taking away jobs that I know Americans wouldn't mind having, I currently work at WHOLE FOODS MARKET while I go to school, and I know for a fact that two illegal aliens work there doing janitorial work, now you tell me that No U.S citizens wouldn't Mind having that job, because I know they would.
I went into a Carl's Jr the other day and the guy at the counter had to translate my order to the girl who was preparing the order because she didn't speak any english.
At school the other day I was looking at the job Bulletin board, because I really would like to find another job, they had a job for a customer Rep at a major untilty company in our area, but they wanted someone who was bilingal in spanish. I could apply for that job but I probably won't even be considered because I don't speak spanish, although I have years of customer service experience and Computer skills and I'm more then qualified for the job.
Another argument I hear is that illegals are good for Business, but thats all they are good for; I would rather businesses hire U.S citizens who need jobs and pay them a fair and decent wage, even if I have to pay more for goods and services. America is a gluttonious country, we buy cheap stuff that many of us don't even need, and we buy in exess, no other country consumes the way we do, I would rather pay a higher price for things it wouldn't matter so long as our wages was up to keep up with inflation.
These Busin
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Fletch,
now you're associating illegal immigrants with thieves.
They aren't coming here to steal...they are coming here to work...sometimes 2, 3, jobs.
You're going to attack people with little education and genuine need for not going through the proper channels? They aren't the ones creating the loopholes...they're the ones who are hungry, with families that they want to shelter, just like us. Where the hell is our empathy?
Seriously. It's been said time and time again on this thread, but all of you who have this axe to grind with the victims of poverty rather than the orchestrators of it, keep ducking the real problem every time...
So why has nobody with this hyper-anger at immigrants conceded, even begrudgingly, that the Corporate Lobbies are the perpetrators of this entire situation? Could one of you please respond to this question? Why don't you see the connection? People will go where there's money. Why haven't we stopped the source of that money?
Why don't you care whether that source is stopped? Why even play around with any other half-baked notion of stopping immigration?
I mean, come on...the immigrants are the bullies? 2 + 2 must also = 5 at this point.
Phaedra's involvement in that march also leads me to believe that not everybody in the crowds were illegals, but also sympathizers and family and friends of them.
Also, arresting illegal immigrants from a rally would do what kind of good exactly? It's as ludicrous as the drug war. If you don't decrease the demand you won't decrease the trade, plain and simple.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
Fletch,
now you're associating illegal immigrants with thieves.
They aren't coming here to steal...they are coming here to work...sometimes 2, 3, jobs.
Actually I was rebuffing two ideas.
1) Desperate starving people break the law to survive and that somehow gives them a moral loophole not possessed by other people that break similar laws. A good example is someone who is starving who steals so they can eat. I was pointing out that there are also people that wouldn't steal even if that meant going hungry, and rich people that steal even when they don't need to.
There are equally desperate people all around the world sometimes waiting years to get a green card allocation. Are they less deserving? Should those that break the rules be rewarded over equally needy people who followed the rules?
Your opinion please.
2) These are starving people. In many cases they are not, they are economic refugees who can make a better life for themselves here than in Mexico. I'm told it costs between $800 and $2500 per person to pay a people smuggler to get you across the border. I know American families without $800 a head in savings. I don't begrudge them the chance at a better life, but if you want to save the starving masses, look at Africa and the far east and take more legal immigrants from there.
Quote:
You're going to attack people with little education and genuine need for not going through the proper channels? They aren't the ones creating the loopholes...they're the ones who are hungry, with families that they want to shelter, just like us. Where the hell is our empathy?
I've stood in line with people, I've watched them wait in queues for hours to see the right official with the dream of coming to this country. Some of these people have waited for years, families have been divided because once you start an application you can't legally visit the US because they are afraid once you're here you'll just disappear. Where's your empathy for them? You don't have any right? They are just the suckers so stupid they played by the rules.
Quote:
Seriously. It's been said time and time again on this thread, but all of you who have this axe to grind with the victims of poverty rather than the orchestrators of it, keep ducking the real problem every time...
Absolutely, the problem is lack of opertunity for people in Mexico. I have a great idea, why don't you take some of your hard earned Gingo dollars and support some charity initatives down there, help those poor starving types at source? I see, that would cost you money when bitching is free.
Oh hey.
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My post was probably a little overboard, and not all directed at you.
Fair enough. It's a blanket statement to say the mexican's coming here are starving. But they are impoverished...the infrastructure in Mexico isn't very good, opportunities to work after reaching a fairly young advanced age, dissapear (I've heard). So what about the future they have once they can no longer find the work they are finding today?
We all look out for ourselves, and our own families. In my opinion, that's neither culpable, nor particularly honorable. Some of us try to find some sort of balance, like contributing to causes(I send money to political causes because I feel like people running the show have the most opportunity(if not the desire) to change things in big ways), and I avoid shopping at Wal-Mart even when I'm dirt broke...
but I still drive a car that pollutes, I still work for a company that hires illegal aliens, which I pay with my tip money. It's hard to be totally apart from the machine...
Which is why I excuse us Americans in the many ways we are doing damage to our world and its peoples...its part ignorance, part a sense of helplessness, part a sense of personal need that directly contradicts those matters of grander import.
It's human nature to be self-referential, and its the nature of capitalism to be self-serving. I think its an unfair lack of context to single out illegal immigrants and say that THEY are the ones who aren't thinking about their neighbors...THEY are the ones not thinking about others in need, when they come to pursue things that would benefit them. We aint so different.
Also, I do care about legal immigrants. Should I repeat one more time to you the answer to who's making it harder for them to get expedited? Yeah, the corporation's who keep hiring illegals...thereby flooding us with illegals. Still no comment on that though?
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Quote:Point taken, Fletch. These are not the folks I empathize with, it's the ones who walk all the way here I feel for.
Originally posted by Fletch2:
2) These are starving people. In many cases they are not, they are economic refugees who can make a better life for themselves here than in Mexico. I'm told it costs between $800 and $2500 per person to pay a people smuggler to get you across the border. I know American families without $800 a head in savings.
Walkin' dude Chrisisall
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