I don't Care What You Believe...Just Believe.
POSTED BY: RiveR6213
UPDATED: Monday, July 31, 2006 23:15
VIEWED: 23405
PAGE 3 of 11
There are no true Christians, only true heathens.
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Carry the Nuttin'
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Every time I meet someone who claims to be a "true christian" I want to turn around and leave as quick as I can. The only people I find more repugnant are the muslim jihadists. A "true christian" will just shun you if they can't convert you. A muslim jihadist will want to kill you if they can't convert you. Either way, they both suck, just to different extremes. Whenever God gets into the mix things get all messed up. If HE truly exists and wants us to worship him in a particular manner wouldn't it make sense that He'd be better at communicating that than what we now have which is just a collection of conflicting religions all claiming title as the "one true faith"? All in all I think that over the centuries religions have done more harm than good in the name of God. Personal faith is great but religion is for sheep, self-righteous assholes and lazy manipulators who won't seek an honest job.
Jaytee
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This preacher's kid is going to use a ten foot pole on the "true Christian" issue. Let's just say I've known some very fine and wonderful Christians, and some... not so much.
However, I think it's important to keep in mind that Book is talking to Mal in this scene, not some random stranger or possible convert. Book knows Mal well, well enough to have formed a good idea of Mal's instincts and tendencies. I think Book trusts Mal, and knows that when Mal finds something to believe in it will be "something right".
Taken out of that context, I'd agree that the statement is nonsense. After all, some terrible things have been done by people who wholeheartedly believed in things -- like slavery, the extermination of some religious or ethnic group, or that (say) babies are best served medium rare on a bed of rice pilaf with a nice brown gravy. I don't think Book's words should be taken as validating those sorts of belief.
Incidentally, my father once said something similar to me: that faith is in and of itself a Good Thing. I didn't, and still don't, fully agree with that, but I can certainly understand that point of view.
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I don't disagree on any particular point.
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I have to admit, Shepherd Book's last words have been troubling to me.
Oh, but first, I suppose I should give a short intro (seems like the thing to do): new Browncoat, saw movie first, then watched show in three days, all commentaries, seen movie 7 times, all episodes at least three times, etc, etc. Also love Star Wars, Jane Austen, Sherlock Holmes, and Lord Peter Wimsey.
Kay, with that out of the way, the reason this quote troubles me is as follows. When coupled with Book's earlier line "When I talk about belief, why do you always assume I'm referring to God?" The implications seems to be that Book is advocating faith, regardless of content. As a (small voice) conservative, evangelical Christian (oh, and Reformed to boot)
As for finding meaning, Christianity is about much more than just finding meaning - though Firefly doesn't get too deeply into what Book's faith is, it does hint that it is something that changes people into something better (see Bushwhacked and Jaynestown). In theological terms, that would be sanctification.
Also, I find the issue of Book's judging the crew quite interesting. He isn't usually confrontational, but I think little moments show he retains moral standards - the Special Hell moment in Our Mrs. Reynolds, his conversations with Jayne (showing that he can respect and care for a man and still retain strong disagreement and concern about his actions), and his introduction to Inara (showing his growth from mere judgment to actually relationship with someone who does what he considers sinful for a living).
I think that the fact that Book accepts wisdom from Inara and offers comfort to the whores in Heart of Gold does not mean he accepts their behavior. To me, it's a strong example of how Book is trying to be a good witness for his faith by not being confrontational and loving others as equal beings, but not participating in or condoning the actions or beliefs of those around him.
To those who see Book's quote to Mal as he dies as needing context - I'm with you all the way. Though I think the earlier conversation with Mal indicates that a broader idea of belief is necessary, I think Book is specifically talking about believing in River and what she shows him to do what it takes to let the 'verse know that man can't make man better.
I also like LadyKnight's very good analysis of Book's relationship with Mal - that poor fuzzy-wuzzy heathen.
Very much agreeing that people can make other people believe in God (or make them better - those two things are impossible, which is by only God can do them - the impossible is His specialty). Not sure if we are supposed to not judge, but the purpose of our judging is not to condemn, but out of compassion and fear for other's souls - not to be more righteous than others (worms don't have anything to brag about). :-)
Finally, I think a note on belief in the film is in order - Joss is most definitely not advocating faith in anything. In the first place, he explicitly says that the Operative is a believer, and we see he is definitely evil (for that matter, the Operative sees that he is definitely evil :-) ). Thus, the content of faith does matter, since true believers can be monsters. Second, in the commentary, Joss says that belief is something Mal's avoided because of the potential it has to make him like the Operative (which is kinda like point one only different). While leaders need belief, they also can be corrupted by what they believe in if they have faith in the wrong object. Third, Joss has made clear that he is telling a perspectival drama, which means that he doesn't necessarily advocate what a character says. So, if Book is saying "Believe whatever the heck you want" Joss and the film don't necessarily back it.
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"Light it." - Simon, "Safe"
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As to the line in the movie, it applies to Mal, that is, to get the job done, that's what Book needed Mal to hear, nothing more....My opinion.
/rant on
As far as the "true" christian discussion.... In my experience, both in my personal, and work life, I'm surrounded by these "true" christians. The similarities between these folk?... Lack of tolerance, and the notion that they know what's best for all. They spew their ignorance.
I'm sick of it...If you don't support the current administration in the U.S., you aren't an American. The fact that I don't agree with the administration's direction DOES NOT equate to the idea that I don't support our troops. If you tolerate homosexuals or are pro-choice, you aren't a christian. If this is so, then I suppose I'm not a "true" christian. Thank God for that. My heathen God. So the "christians" can feel better.
/rant off
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Christians are not to tolerate those things that rebel against God. Homosexuality does that.
Does that mean that I should debase and hate a homosexual? God forbid! You LOVE that person, even more than a potential partner would! The SIN is detestable, but God is LOVE, and we are to REFLECT that love in EVERY SINGLE PERSON WE MEET, regardless of who they are.
Does it mean I should go on a religious tirade against a group of Muslims? GOD FORBID! You get the word to them, you talk to them, you love them, no matter how they feel about you. PLANT THE SEED, AND GOD WILL GROW IT.
The Internet's thought on Christianity is that the trend is to hate us. To mock us. You're not mocking me, brothers and sisters, you're mocking Christ in me. My feelings aren't hurt. I'm not outraged. I will still love you and pray that you all come to Christ before it's too late.
To the Atheists - prove to me there's no God. :)
Book held onto his ideals, onto the righteousness that God gave to him through his boundless grace. Book will ALWAYS be my favorite character, and, I can only pray that the actor that played Book is a Christian.
Being a Christian is not to judge others. We are to judge one another as Christians. We have to. Everything we do becomes so corrupt due to our sinful natures(if a Christian ever tells you they are better than you, you give them my email address - I'll be sure to put them back on the right path). Everything. Our religion, our denominations, it's all corrupt at one time or another.
Take, for example, the Pentecostal faith. Someone could stand, at any time, yell out something, even gibberish, and another person will stand and claim it to be "angelic" language and translate it. During the early age of the church, as Acts records it, the languages spoken by the apostles were EARTHLY languages, spreading the Gospel so that ALL could understand it, regardless of racial or land boundaries. We've corrupted that teaching and claim that a bunch of nonsense is God's language. IT'S NOT. However, these same people LOVE JESUS, and for that, I can overlook my personal thoughts concerning their religion and worship with them fine. I have.
The point of the matter is that Jesus is alive and well, and if ANYONE would want to know more, please, email me. I love to talk shop(I'm training to become a Shepard 
), and more importantly, I want to show you all that the "self-righteous" aren't the only ones around, and help you in any way I can. Just don't ask me to drive a ship. 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Woebringer:
As to the line in the movie, it applies to Mal, that is, to get the job done, that's what Book needed Mal to hear, nothing more....My opinion.
I agree. Book knew Mal's past, and knew why Mal was so troubled. He wanted to give Mal something to carry him through.
As someone who has "lost faith" myself, I really connected with that line. I don't miss religion, but I do miss faith. I miss believing in something- anything- so much bigger than myself. No preacher of any religion or denomination will ever have the ability to bring me back to religion unless I decide I'm ready to come back. But I am finding other things to believe in.
To those how said Book isn't a "real" Christian: First, the nature of Christianity has changed dramatically over the past couple of thousand years. Second, who's a better Christian: the person who prays with a starving man, or the person who gets him some food? Preaching is all well and good, but there's no point in preaching to someone who's choosing not to hear it. Sometimes practical concerns are more important than spiritual concerns.
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Quote:
To the Atheists - prove to me there's no God. :)
Prove to me there is one.
I can't make you believe there isn't, any more than you can make me believe there is. We believe what we're ready to believe, when we're ready to believe tit.
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I have never met a Christian who reflected God's love...not ever. I have never met a Christian who was selfless, or loving, but I’ve met plenty of mean, selfish, control freaks who claim that they are Christians while at the same time laughing at the poor, and being racists towards blacks and other people.
This reminds me of a time a few years ago when I was feeling kind of low, so I decided one Sunday to go into a church and just listen and watch people. There were all of these expensivly dressed people about, and there was enough glitter in that church to feed at least half of the 3rd world. Everyone sat down and the church service started. In the middle of the sermon that was being given by a pompus, church leader, some old guy walked into the church and sat in the back. He was obviously poor based on his clothing, and he look sad, but he was quiet, but unfortunately for him, he was black which didn’t go over to well with the good, respectable Christians at that church. The sermon continued for a while and during the break, the black man was quietly asked to leave! When he left I left with him and we went and had coffee somewhere and talked.
So, I guess poor people aren’t invited to god’s house unless they have money, position and status. I guess this was another sick example of good Christians at work. I say put ‘em up against the wall.
River
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...tap tap tap....
Still waiting for Ax's question to get answered...
...tap tap tap....
While I am waiting on that, I can't help but ponder how some Christians seem to be a might....meddlesome. Much like the alliance. Hummmmmmmmm
~~~~~
"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."
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