any christians here in this entire site please stand up
POSTED BY: leelu7777
UPDATED: Monday, September 22, 2025 14:45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cuhmal:
And I’ve given you the link, if you don’t like that evidence, that’s not my problem.
I thought you were talking about common language patterns or something, I hadn't realised you were talking about a couple of words that appear in records that some scholars (not the majority as you made out, some) believe could mean the people who became the Israelites (I assume I still have to qualify it).
That's not evidence it's a theory, because there's just as much evidence the other way. So actually it is your problem.
Quote:
Ipuwer:
Indeed, gold and lapis lazuli, silver and turquoise, carnelian and amethyst, Ibhet-stone and [*] are strung on the necks of maidservants.
Exodus:
...the sons of Israel...requested from the Egyptians articles of silver and articles of gold and clothing; and the Lord had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians so that they let them have their request. Thus they plundered the Egyptians.
You’re taking the statement out of context. In the original source that’s talking about what happens after Barbarians have driven the Egyptians from their homes leaving only the servants and their possessions. You’re going to have to stretch the source a lot more to make it fit. Though it's getting pretty stretched as it is...
Further more your going on about the plagues part as if it's some new revelation to this thread, since it was my opening statement about five or six posts ago that the plagues are mentioned in Egyptian records, but the slaves leaving isn’t, I really don't know what your going on about.
Despite you stretching the source to fit there’s still no account of the slaves leaving Egypt, and there’s still no mention of the Habiru, so either the Habiru doesn’t mean the people who became the Israelites, or the people who became the Israelites aren’t mentioned in the Papyrus.
You're getting closer and closer to arguing my point for me so I might just take a step back soon and leave you too it
.More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear
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Quote:That’s one interpretation.
Originally posted by citizen:
You’re taking the statement out of context. In the original source that’s talking about what happens after Barbarians have driven the Egyptians from their homes leaving only the servants and their possessions.
Quote:I see. And what point is that?
Originally posted by citizen:
You're getting closer and closer to arguing my point for me so I might just take a step back soon and leave you too it
Quote:Actually, Exodus says something like 600,000, which is pretty hard to believe, even by the Hyksos theory.
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Yes, but the reason you think so is that Exodus says so.
But concerning your other comments: I think you have a pretty good idea, and I think it fits well with the story in Exodus and the archeological evidence in Palestine that suggests that there wasn’t a mass invasion of peoples that resulted in the formation of Israel. The strength of your theory is that it may explain the apparent lack of Egyptian identification of the Hebrews in Egypt, however the weakness is that it relies on a single very small group of people to forge out the Kingdom of Israel. One imagines that such a small group of people would not be able to siege walled Canaanite cities, but it seems like your speaking of two different groups of people. A small group of Hebrews from Egypt and a larger population in Canaan?
Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Let's look at what we know. Joseph is sold as a slave in Egypt and gains a reputation as a seer. He gets employed by Pharoh and eventually invites his family to join him there. Now let's say that by "family" we mean an extended group, a tribe. That is still not every Jew then living not by a very long shot. We then have a break in the narrative that is 100-300 years by which time the decendents of these Jews are no longer welcome in Egypt and are enslaved. Note that this was not like the Babylonians raiding Israel for slaves, this is the Egyptian Jewish population being oppresses. So we have some subset of the entire tribes of Israel actually being effected here. These folks leave and eventually end up in the promised land with what we assume to be those tribes that didn't leave. Over time the returnees pass their story along, and as they marry and mingle it becomes widespread.
Eventually someone writes this tale down, but by then several hundred years have passed almost everyone you would meet would claim to be related to the people that were there. If you do a headcount THEN that is a significant number.
Remember the Stone scene at the end of Schindler's list. He saved very few compared to those that were killed but in time he "saved" thousands of descendents. In 300 years a large number of the world's Jews will have at least one Schindler ancestor. You really do save the world in time.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:The “Egyptian Account” is the Ipuwer papyrus.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- I loked into the links that you posted and didn't see an Egyptian account that prallels Exodus. If you have additional links or info let us know.
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An analysis of the Comparison between Ipuwer and Exodus
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/thera/plagues.html
A translation of the Admonitions of Ipuwer:
http://www.touregypt.net/admonitionsofipuwer.htm
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipuwer_papyrus
... some scholars have believed the document to be an Egyptian account of the Plagues of Egypt and the Exodus in the Old Testament of the Bible, and is cited as "proof" for the Biblical account by various religious organisations. Slaves are described as acting rebelliously, leaving their servitude, and wearing their masters' jewelry.
This association with the Exodus is generally rejected by scholars, who generally place the Exodus in the reign of Ramses II.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Quote:Yes, some scholars might reject the comparison based on the assumption that the Exodus occurred during Ramses II reign, which I’ve already pointed out.
Originally posted by rue:
This association with the Exodus is generally rejected by scholars, who generally place the Exodus in the reign of Ramses II.
Stated by me earlier.
“As it turns out there are people who dispute whether the Egyptian account is the same thing event as Exodus, based on the assumption that Exodus occurred during Ramses II, which may or may not be true.”
The problem is that I don’t think that most historians agree that the Exodus occurred during Ramses II, but rather during Akenaton (sp?) or Thutmus III.
I’m not an Egyptologists but from a layman’s standpoint, the comparisons to the events in Exodus are uncanny and undeniable. I think that many historians date Ipuwer about 1500 to 1600, which is about 50-150 years before the later date of the events in Exodus, placing it outside the reign of Thutmus III. But the date is by no means certain and all historians seem to admit that it is impossible to accurately date the Ipuwer papyrus. Similarly, even though many historians assert that Exodus takes place during Ramses II, there is actually no mention of the name of the Pharaoh in Exodus and many historians doubt this assertion, suggesting instead that the later date during Thutmus III of ~1450. I don’t know how reconcilable these dates are, but I do know that the dates for the eruption for Mt. Thera fall between 1450 and 1600 oddly enough, so it is very tempting to assume that these are all the same events. The dates seem to fall within the margin of error. I think they probably are. You can draw your own conclusions.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Finn, I read the papyrus. While it talks about general disruption, nowhere in the papyrus does it mention any large number of slaves leaving. It fact, the author sounds like he would RATHER that the foreigners and servants left, but they didn't.
Also, I did read up on the dating. The consensus is that the papyrus existed a century or two before the Exodus. But assuming that there were some Abiru in Egypt (those naked, smelly herders that were occasionally rounded up and sent off to the big cities as gifts- including but not limited to Hebrews) isn't it possible that the "plagues" of Egypt got folded into the story of Exodus if the story of Exodus was developed afterwards? That and the fact that the Hebrew prophesies of a resurrected god seems to say that the Hebrews were at least "familiar with" Egyptian stories.
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Quote:I would imagine that it is certainly possible. I don't konw how accepted of a theory it is, but I’m of the mind to believe there is so little about Bronze Age history that is conclusive that it is often difficult to complete rule anything out. An Egyptian monotheistic religion was worshiped in Egypt before or possibly during the Exodus. Moses is believed an Egyptian. So there is a lot more then just the Ipuwer papyrus to suggest that the Exodus and even early Judaism are Egyptian in origin. Although, I don’t deny that Judaism may have Egyptian origins, in fact, I think that it does, I still think that Ipuwer and Exodus are separately describing the same event.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Also, I did read up on the dating. The consensus is that the papyrus existed a century or two before the Exodus. But assuming that there were some Abiru in Egypt (those naked, smelly herders that were occasionally rounded up and sent off to the big cities as gifts- including but not limited to Hebrews) isn't it possible that the "plagues" of Egypt got folded into the story of Exodus if the story of Exodus was developed afterwards? That and the fact that the Hebrew prophesies of a resurrected god seems to say that the Hebrews were at least "familiar with" Egyptian stories.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Well I think a smaller number is the only way to explain the sieges at all. The hundreds of thousands leaving Egypt theory is a none starter there.
Sieges are essentially battles of logistics. The invading army brings supplies with it and can maybe get supply caravans from friendly territory. In the main though they have to raid and scavenge for supplies. The besieged population lives off of what they brought with them, and stored supplies. Usually the city has more supplies than the folks camped outside but a much larger number of mouths to feed. Long sieges usually go the invaders way but their linger time outside the city wall is limited by supplies. If you cant supply the encamped army for the long wait then you loose.
Usually an invading army are soldiers and camp followers, far smaller in number than the population of the city they are surrounding. Sometimes they are smaller in number than even the fighting men of the city, it takes a lot to give up well defended and provisioned defences for risks on the battlefield.
Now let's look at the Israelites, moving along with everybody young or old in a big group. Such a group could not linger long in a siege because you would have the same disadvantage the folks inside had, ie many mouths, without the stores.
So we are left with two possibilities.
1) All sieges were short duration, which could be possible, the site most people believe was Jericho had damaged walls from an earthquake that hadn't been repaired after 100 years, so it's possible that medieval scholars reading "Siege" thought it was a bigger deal and the Caananite cities actually proved to be.
2) An Israelite army well in advance of a population already farming occupied lands and sending supplies forwards.
We also have to ask what happened to the Caananites? Perhaps what really happened was that over time the larger population became the bulk of the Jewish nation, taking on the cultural identity of the victors? Perhaps back then being Israeli was more acceptance of an idea than a a strict racial definition?
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Quote:
That’s one interpretation.
Stronger than yours since it takes the statement in context, where yours requires us to take it out of context. Interpreting text like that I could make many sources fit Exodus.
Quote:
I see. And what point is that?
Well if you bothered to read what I posted for comprehension rather than just try and shout me down by playing word games like “They weren’t called Israelites back then”, or repeat what I’ve already said as if it disproves what I’ve said, you'd know. I'll spell it out too you:
That the story of Exodus, like other Bible stories, is a composite of many real events that happened at disparate times and became folk law among the people who became the Israelites and was then written down in a later evolved form as Exodus in the Torah and later the Old Testament of the Bible.
That Exodus wasn’t a ‘real event’ but a composite that formed folk law, like the legends of King Arthur were based on some real events and real people that were composited and the gaps filled.
Quote:
The “Egyptian Account” is the Ipuwer papyrus.
An analysis of the Comparison between Ipuwer and Exodus
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/thera/plagues.html
A translation of the Admonitions of Ipuwer:
http://www.touregypt.net/admonitionsofipuwer.htm
Actually there is other sources and not just from Egypt, at least for the eruption of Thera and the following effects. The eruption of Thera is mentioned in Chinese literature and historical accounts of the period; it is also believed to be the inspiration for the fall of Atlantis myths in Egyptian society.
The eruption of Thera is backed by scientific and Archaeological evidence, as are the effects as the eruption. It has been worked out that the dust cloud would have darkened the skies above Egypt in a fashion consistent with the Plagues. The subsequent effects can also explain the other Plagues, such as Red Tide, which could explain water turning to blood. The violent hail would be the pumice and other ejecta falling to earth after the Eruption.
The eruption is also believed to be the inspiration behind some Ancient Greek literature such as Titanomachy in Hesiod's Theogony.
Notice how the Plagues are all supported by these events and accounts, but not a huge exodus of slaves from Egypt.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear
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The papyrus describes a kingdom's downfall in horrible detail. The picture is one of starvation, disease and chaos: jewelry was plentiful but food was scarce, people abanded their stations in life and took to looting, red tides spoiled the river, the children of the wealthy were killed in despair. It would be hard to imagine that a distant volcano could send a kingdom into a death-spiral, but that is consistent with similar accounts and archaeological finds of other societies faced with ecological catastrophe. The eruption of Krakatoa around 535 (recorded in Chinese scrolls) disrupted climate around the world and destroyed civilizations from China to Mesoamerica. And when those societies fell, they fell hard: looting, burning, cannibalism, disease, and war. Even something as predictable, preventable and gradual as the logging of all trees from Easter Island led to sudden societal collapse. So the papyrus is horribly consistent with other similar events.
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