who was zoe going to draw on in the bdm?

POSTED BY: oct0gen
UPDATED: Monday, March 6, 2006 18:20
VIEWED: 11216
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ZOID

Friday, March 3, 2006 9:27 PM

mal4prez:

Hmmm... Maybe I did a bad job of explaining 'Zoe's Choice'.

Throughout the episode leading up to her choice, we see Zoe and Wash arguing about his perception that she is more loyal to Mal than to him ("No, what this marriage needs is one less husband. (beat) Right now it's kind of crowded."). After they are captured, throughout the torture, Mal and Wash carry on a heated debate on the same topic ("I mean, I'm the one she swore to love, honor and obey!"; "She swore to obey?"; "Well, no. Not... But that's my point! You she obeys! She obeys you! There's obeying happening right under my nose.").

When Zoe comes in and chooses Wash before Niska can even fully ask the question ("I'm sorry. You were going to ask me to choose, right? Didja wanna finish?")...

I experienced a moment of "Yes! She chose her husband!" The way the scene was paced (i.e., her preempting Niska's question), all the argument that prededed, created that moment in a way that precluded on-the-spot analysis, for me; but I may be slower than others. In any case, I think Joss (or Cheryl Cain, who wrote the ep) intended to get that reaction, and it worked on me.

It is not until Wash and Zoe get back to the shuttle and she says, "He'll make it last as long as possible. Days, if he can," that it becomes clear on first viewing that her choice of Wash wasn't a choice at all, but rather the opening gambit of a plan of attack.

Just call me too thick to have understood that before she subtly revealed she was planning on rescuing Mal later. Y'all picked it up even as she told Niska, "Him," (pointing at Wash). That's a pretty good catch, if y'all ain't cheating by evaluating it in hindsight...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

MAL4PREZ

Friday, March 3, 2006 9:59 PM

Hey Zoid -

I feel like we generally agree, just have different timing of the moment of understanding. Dong ma?

We agree a lot, actually, because I had the same reaction at first when Zoe picked Wash (well, my reaction the first time I saw it was more along the lines of: Joss I love you for setting up this agonizing tramautic decision that on any other show would drag on with many a cry of woe from the poor set-upon woman, but on FF it's done wham bang! and she's tough as nails...)

whoa - taken by a moment of Joss worship, where was I? oh yeah - I also thought hmm, interesting that Zoe picked Wash so easily, there will be fallout. But when Mal shook his head at Wash, clearly agreeing with her choice and not upset over it, I started thinking she was being practical. Thinking about more than who do I love more? Especially as Wash barely made it through the early stages of the torture which Mal could take. In hindsight the choice was clear.

I must admit, having watched the episode so many times, it's hard to be free of hindsight...

So we basically agree, you think?

Zeek - I'm also pondering your points. Zoe is clearly not stupid, and she's always ready to offer Mal a differing opinion. But, in the series at least, she does it without ever being disloyal or really crossing him. By the movie he's certainly gotten darker and I can see her second guessing him on a deeper level, but insisting on fighting in the hall instead of getting behind the blast doors was more of a tactical thing. Arguing tactics doesn't imply disloyalty.

I still haven't decided who she must have been drawing the gun on in the BDM. I always thought of it as an instinctual reaction. Just Joss showing how tense everyone was. It never occurred to me that she might be drawing on anyone in particular. I must watch that scene again tonight.

Good thread octogen!

m4p

Ask Dr. Science ... he knows more than you do.
"I have a Master's degree ... in science!"

ZOID

Friday, March 3, 2006 10:15 PM

mal4prez wrote:

Quote:
...I still haven't decided who she must have been drawing the gun on in the BDM. I always thought of it as an instinctual reaction. Just Joss showing how tense everyone was. It never occurred to me that she might be drawing on anyone in particular. I must watch that scene again tonight.

Good thread octogen!

Watch it with JW's commentary turned on. I just passed that very scene (yes, I'm watching it even as a write these words), and JW states that everybody's reaction is carefully scripted, mentioning Zoe touching her weapon, and saying she does so "just in case there's trouble". So, not exactly a definitive answer, in terms of 'trouble from whom?'.

...But Joss clearly had something very definitive in mind, else why were the physical reactions carefully scripted?

v/r,
-zed

MAL4PREZ

Friday, March 3, 2006 10:24 PM

I do remember that from the commentary, now that you mention it... will watch again. (Any excuse is enough)

m4p

Ask Dr. Science ... he knows more than you do.
"I have a Master's degree ... in science!"

ZEEK

Friday, March 3, 2006 10:35 PM

I wonder if there is more explination in the novel. If that action is in there I wouldn't be surprised if there was some detail written in about what Zoe is thinking. I never bought the novel myself. Anyone who has it care to take a gander for us?

ZOID

Friday, March 3, 2006 11:01 PM

Zeek:

The scene occurs on pages 121 - 125, and no mention of Zoe touching her gun, or her motivations for doing so.

In any case, Joss has distanced himself -- gently -- from KRAD's novelization, saying any motivations or internal dialogue Keith ascribed to the characters were strictly from Keith's imagination. Joss went on to say that motivations would only be canonical if he wrote the novel himself, and that he didn't have that kind of time.

Just saying.

v/r,
-zed

SECURITYSIX

Friday, March 3, 2006 11:34 PM

I agree that Simon was pretty much guaranteed to lose that fight and Zoe was most likely going to wind up getting Mal to back down if she had to draw.

As wierd as this is going to sound, I'm going to say it: Mal is not a fighter*. As much as Mal is not a fighter, Simon is less of one. There's no way Simon was going to win that fight without River being in immediate mortal danger, which isn't a problem because River is the one person on the boat that Mal would hesitate to kill, regardless of circumstances.

* Mal can fight, yes, but he's not a fighter. Mal gets beat up a lot and comes too close to losing too many fights to be a fighter. What Mal is, is a leader. People follow him because he won't ask them to do anything he won't do himself if he's capable of it.

SICKDUDE

Friday, March 3, 2006 11:46 PM

Zoid:
Along with everyone else, I gotta say I'm enjoying this discussion, too.

In regards to Tracey, good point. D'oh! Anyway, I was just attempting to reinforce your point about the strange degree of Zoe's uber-loyalty.

Regarding Kaylee and PTSD, wow! Interesting! As a side note, I love to watch Mal at the end of the recording and the way it is shot. It looks like he's turning and walking towards the woman to comfort them, and then he justs walks by...

As to Zoe's reactions in "War Stories", well, "I'm not disagreeing on any particular point". (Poor reaver-ised quote) However, in a sense, it actually backs up the theory that she's drawing on Mal. (Stretch coming) Consistently, we see Zoe act... perfectly. She responds to every tactical situation absolutely dead-on, she's always level-headed, she doesn't waste movement, and she thinks everything through. It throws a blanket over the theory that she's going for her gun to help out Mal who obviously doesn't need it, or just out of reflexes. Neither course sounds much like her. She only reaches for the gun exactly when it is needed...

Sorry, but I am still not swayed. Like Zeek says, I think it's done to show the beginnings of her questioning Mal.

"It's a cow."

ZOID

Saturday, March 4, 2006 1:15 AM

Sickdude:

Well, y'all have certainly made me reconsider my first impression of the scene. The only overriding objection I have to 'Zoe was going to draw on Mal' is my conviction that she could never disobey Mal or allow him to be harmed. I think she owes him a 'life debt', in a socioreligiously significant way from her birth culture's viewpoint. It's not that she can't disagree with him, but that ultimately she must obey and protect him. But, that's just my gut feeling, I could be totally wrong.

On a side note: Those rewatching the BDM (like me, as I wait for part 1 of the BSG season finale at 9PM local), be sure and pause the playback when the Op is reviewing Mal's file. On the second screen, regarding Mal's war record, it lists him as "Captain, Independent Army, 57th Brigade".

Captain, not Sergeant. My guess is that it was a "battlefield commission". But it certainly clarifies a few things in my mind, and negates Badger's evaluation of Mal somewhat (presuming it's not a 'movie goof').

Damn. I want to hear the entire story of The Battle of Serenity Valley in the worst possible way...

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
..And Jayne drinks liquor from his little cup with a Chinese dragon on it... It's the details that captivate me.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

MAL4PREZ

Monday, March 6, 2006 4:12 PM

I watched this scene over the weekend, with and without commentary. Here's my take...

On the commentary, Joss is talking about how he kept Simon in shadow to make it clear he was the outsider at this point, and it's an eye-opener (shot of River's eyes opening) to the crew that this girl they've had on the ship for so long could be evil.

So I have to think this scene is about Simon's alienation, not Mal's. And Zoe's reaction is just Joss trying to define his characters to new viewers every chance he gets, cause there really weren't many chances in the movie. Kaylee looks scared, Wash looks concerned, Zoe's ready to fight. Just a natural reaction for each of them. I don't think Zoe was planning to go after anyone, and certainly not Mal.

That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it until Joss tells me I'm wrong.

m4p

Ask Dr. Science ... he knows more than you do.
"I have a Master's degree ... in science!"

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