Let's Talk About Literature.... Anyone?

POSTED BY: Mattie
UPDATED: Friday, March 10, 2006 18:40
VIEWED: 9023
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MATTIE

Friday, March 3, 2006 1:22 AM

I was reading a thread the other day about how Firefly helped someone get through the loss of their father (was it? hum...I'm not sure). It got me to thinking.

Firefly has definetly become the "hobby horse" to which I realate everything in my life. While friends and family members may be concerene, I consider that a good thing because it's helped me to better understand the things I read and discuss in my English classes--they're packed with philosophy and the like.

As I sit in class, I think of all these ways that scenes, lines, and subtexts of Firefly and Serenity relate to the things I discuss in class. Because I don't want to be seen as insane, and because I want to be taken serriously, I don't talk about this stuff in my classes. And, because there isn't already a really good forum or thread to discuss this in already, I wanted to post here and see if anyone would be interested in talking about literature and philosophy, and how they can be related to Firefly and vice versa.

So, here it is.... Any takers? I know that it might seem hard, and possibly nonsensical to relate something like Pride and Prejudice to Firefly, but believe me, I'm sure I could come up with something, if I haven't already.

Wacky fun!

RIVERGODDESS

Friday, March 3, 2006 1:46 AM

*Sigh* You read my mind! I love thinking about how Firefly would tie into some of our discussions, including the anti-hero, idealists, etc... I think this could be an interesting thread to explore.
I also just love picking apart and episode, or bits from the movie, to find things I might have missed to elude to themes/symbols/whatever. Hmm...*pulls out notes* Yep, this might take awhile. Great topic, though!

*~*~
Summer's response to Nathan getting his very own action figure:
"I tried to pull his head off."

MURKYMERC

Friday, March 3, 2006 2:00 AM

I'm game

RADAR

Friday, March 3, 2006 2:12 AM

I'll chat a bit...

SHINYFAB

Friday, March 3, 2006 3:09 AM

I'm down. I've actually thought about Frankenstein in relation to Firefly themes. So yes, very excited to jump on it!

MATTIE

Friday, March 3, 2006 4:38 AM

Sweet! You are my heros!

Frankenstein and Firefly? I haven't read that, but it's on my syllabus in the next few weeks. Is is okay if we postpone that discussion? Just for a minute. I promise, I'll even title a thread just for it, it'll be called "Firefly vs. Frankenstein"

But, enough with that. Has anyone read Freud's essay on the Uncanny? Here's a link to it:
http://social.chass.ncsu.edu/wyrick/debclass/uncan.htm

Check out this quote from Freud's "The Uncanny" essay:
"the most successful devices for easily creating uncanny effects is to leave the reader in uncertainty whether a particular figure in the story is a human being or an automaton and to do it in such a way that his attention is not focused directly upon his uncertainty, so that he may not be led to go into the matter and clear it up immediately."

We obviously know that River is not an automation, but how does Joss encourage us as viewers to question whether or not she is human? Are there any other characters in Firefly that this feeling--the feeling that they may not be human--applies to? Does River's point of view make the rest of the crew, indeed, even us as viewers, question what qualifies a rational way to see the world?

Freud's conclusion to all of this is that the uncanny actually becomes the canny. He uses the defenitions of "Heimlich" and "Unheimlich" (German for canny/uncanny) to show that the familiar is actually related to the unfamiliar. To me, this ties into existentialism, a spreme underlying philosiphy in the theme of the episode Objects in Space. The way we look at the world and the meaning we give the objects in it determine those uncanny feelings.

Ahhhh!!! Epiphany! I'm so glad that I have an accepted outlet for my crazy thoughts! Thanks for listening! I'd answer my questions, but I don't want this to be an essay all by itself. I think I'll wait to hear from all of you. It helps anyway because your thoughts--as everyone else's always do--help me understand even better.

Wacky fun!

DAVEC5

Friday, March 3, 2006 4:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mattie:
Wacky fun!

after listening to Joss's commentary track on Senerity, i read the book "Nausea" by Jean Paul Sartre (Joss mentions it as something that had a rather large impact on his young life) - Sartre is a champion of Existentialism - a philosophy that has always ingrigued me.
While i'm certainly no expert on the subject, i can say that the idea has some merit. Existentialism conflicts somewhat with my own philosophy of humanism in that it seems only to offer a very bleak view of man's future.

Sartre's Theory of the Universe:
"There is no ultimate meaning or purpose inherent in human life; in this sense life is 'absurd'. We are 'forlorn', 'abandoned' in the world to look after ourselves completely. Sartre insists that the only foundation for values is human freedom, and that there can be no external or objective justification for the values anyone chooses to adopt".

How this inspired Mr. Whedon i'm not sure, but i would recommend "Nausea" for anyone looking for a little insight into the existential thought process.

...and we all shine on...

DAVEC5

Friday, March 3, 2006 5:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mattie:
Check out this quote from Freud's "The Uncanny" essay:
"the most successful devices for easily creating uncanny effects is to leave the reader in uncertainty whether a particular figure in the story is a human being or an automaton and to do it in such a way that his attention is not focused directly upon his uncertainty, so that he may not be led to go into the matter and clear it up immediately."
Wacky fun!

at the risk of boring you all to tears....i continue...

some of the quotes were taken from the text listed below:

Outside of Sartre's view that life is an "unhappy consciousness," a "useless passion," much of what Sartre asserts makes sense and counters the dangerous notions of Freud and his ilk. For instance, Sartre emphatically rejects the idea advanced by Freud that certain mental events have unconscious causes. Emotions, he says, are not outside the control of our wills, if one is sad it is because one chooses to be sad; we are responsible for our emotions; we are, ultimately, responsible for our own behaviour. According to Sartre, man is free and being conscious of this fact, can bring on pain, or anguish; and typically we try to avoid the consciousness of our own freedom.

"The crucial concept in his diagnosis is that of self-deception or 'bad faith' (mauvaise foi). Bad faith is the attempt to escape anguish by pretending to ourselves that we are not free. We try to convince ourselves that our attitudes and actions are determined by our character, our situation, our role in life, or anything other than ourselves. Sartre gives two famous examples of bad faith. He pictures a girl sitting with a man who she knows very well would like to seduce her. But when he takes her hand, she tries to avoid the painful necessity of a decision to accept or reject him, by pretending not to notice, leaving her hand in his as if she were not aware of it. She pretends to herself that she is a passive object, a thing, rather than what she really is, a conscious being who is free. The second illustration of the cafe waiter who is doing his job just a little too keenly; he is obviously 'acting the part'. If there is bad faith here, it is that he is trying to identify himself completely with the role of waiter, to pretend that this particular role determines his every action and attitude. Whereas the truth is that he has chosen to take on the job, and is free to give it up at any time. He is not essentially a waiter, for no man is essentially anything."1

thanks Mattie for the opportunity for the rant... it is a rather large can of worms....but you did pop the top...

1 See Leslie Stevenson's book, Seven Theories of Human Nature (1974) (Oxford University Press, 2nd Ed., 1987); Stevenson was a reader in logic and Metaphysics at the University of St. Andrews, Scotland.

...and we all shine on...

WEREALLJUSTFLOATING

Friday, March 3, 2006 6:27 PM

Quote:
But, enough with that. Has anyone read Freud's essay on the Uncanny? Here's a link to it:
http://social.chass.ncsu.edu/wyrick/debclass/uncan.htm

Check out this quote from Freud's "The Uncanny" essay:
"the most successful devices for easily creating uncanny effects is to leave the reader in uncertainty whether a particular figure in the story is a human being or an automaton and to do it in such a way that his attention is not focused directly upon his uncertainty, so that he may not be led to go into the matter and clear it up immediately."

I've read this essay, I did a class in college about Horror and SciFi films that were adapted from literature, among them Dracula, Frankenstein, Blade Runner - it was great!

I had to write an essay at the end and I chose to tie it in with that Freud essay and focus it on the use of vampires in fiction as a metaphor for the dark side of human nature.(that was the gist of it I think, it was a few years ago and I haven't reread it or anything) But I loved being able to tie all these various stories together using the idea of the uncanny. I even managed to throw in a Buffy reference somewhere!

As far as I remember I think I focused on Freud's idea of "the return of the repressed"- which you could definitley point out as a major theme in the BDM. River, being psychic, gleams the truth of what happened to the people of Miranda, and is subsequently tormented by the knowledge until she is triggered and finally leads Mal and co. to the planet to uncover the horror that lies there. Only then can she function somewhat normally. Even within the story of the Pax and the Reavers themselves you can find the same theme: namely that the Alliance, in trying to eliminate natural human aggression, merely stifle it, pushing it down in a sense, only for it to resurface in the horrific form of the Reavers.

BTW I don't think there's any coincidence in the the parallel between River's name and that of the Reavers - that Joss is a smart one afterall!

I could go on but I'd be typing all day. This discussion is fun though.

P.S I also really like the existentialist themes of the show (as mentioned above)- Objects In Space being one of the best episodes of any of Joss' episodes from his 3 shows IMO.

We're still flying.

That's not much.

It's enough.

MATTIE

Friday, March 3, 2006 6:45 PM

And I take the dive into the can. Ohhh, isn't this fun?!

I actually haven't read Nausea, but I think I will, now. I read the book Finding Serenity and one of the essays in it discusses Sartre and his effect on Joss, so I kinda understand the whole "you assign things their own meaning thing". But, I had no idea that Sartre actually opposed Freud, but here we are... I swear, I learn something new every day! It makes sense, though, that Sartre would find reason to reject Freud. The example you provided really helped me to understand that.

Maybe I was making a HUGE logical leap when I connected Freud to existentialism. Maybe a clearer connection is in order?

If we can think something, then that makes that something conceivable--possible, if you will. The idea that our thoughts determine what is real relates to that idea that if your mind can think it, and can assign it, then that's what constitutes your vision of the world. You're certainly left with the ability to doubt, and that's what makes life so interesting.

I know now that Sartre, an excellent Existentialist, rejected Freud, but I think that there's a connection between them on a different level. Do I make sense, or do you totally reject my logic?

Wacky fun!

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