Let's Talk About Literature.... Anyone?

POSTED BY: Mattie
UPDATED: Friday, March 10, 2006 18:40
VIEWED: 9023
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ok...just thought i'd check on the discussion...i am late to the party it appears....

Random authors, random books....things that don't really mean much in the Browncoat Verse, but once again, curiosity gets the best of me.

Speaking of existentialist writing....has anyone read the works of Jim Thompson...? This is dark and spooky stuff, but i am drawn to it for some reason. The man really saw into the life of the down-trodden and those on the extreme fringe of what some call this civilized society we live in. I mean, don't expect walt disney, fairy tale, sweetness and light with Thompson, but if you feel like getting down and dirty, holed up in a dingy hotel room with a gun and a bottle as your best friends, go read Thompson....The Killer Within captures a lot of Thompson's best (if you can call it 'best').

also, a movie based on a Thompson pulp, The Grifters, was a very underrated film...but so much better than a lot of the stuff that passes for entertainment these days...

for what it's worth....


...and we all shine on...

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Originally posted by davec5:

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Originally posted by Mattie:
Wacky fun!

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after listening to Joss's commentary track on Senerity, i read the book "Nausea" by Jean Paul Sartre (Joss mentions it as something that had a rather large impact on his young life) - Sartre is a champion of Existentialism - a philosophy that has always ingrigued me.
While i'm certainly no expert on the subject, i can say that the idea has some merit. Existentialism conflicts somewhat with my own philosophy of humanism in that it seems only to offer a very bleak view of man's future.

Sartre's Theory of the Universe:
"There is no ultimate meaning or purpose inherent in human life; in this sense life is 'absurd'. We are 'forlorn', 'abandoned' in the world to look after ourselves completely. Sartre insists that the only foundation for values is human freedom, and that there can be no external or objective justification for the values anyone chooses to adopt".

How this inspired Mr. Whedon i'm not sure, but i would recommend "Nausea" for anyone looking for a little insight into the existential thought process.

...and we all shine on...

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I can't speak for why Joss finds this uplifting, but personally I find it hugely inspiring, and makes me incredibly proud of what humanity has accomplished. If there is no grand plan, no higher being pointing out what is right and wrong, no overarching reason to try to be a good person whatsoever, then the fact that there are so many good people out there is amazing, because so often we are given the opportunity to do self-serving things without punishment and we don't because we believe that doing something bad is wrong based entirely on our own moral beliefs.

Joss makes a big deal of the line in Angel where he says 'if nothing we do matter, then all that matters is what we do' which I find incredibly uplifting. I'm not being judged by a higher power, I'm not going to be rewarded for the good I do, yet I still do it, because it's right.

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Ahh, I'm just glad that even though I'm not here all the time--I can't even check this on a daily basis--this thread is still alive. I won't let it be archived, I just won't!

Hah, now really. I've got a lot of good information for a respnse to that one response, but all I need is just one more hour in the day to put it all together and actually DO it.

As for more existentialism... hum... well, we'll jsut have to see about that. I'm already begging for ONE more hour in the day.

Wacky fun!

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Originally posted by chronicthehedgehog:
.......I can't speak for why Joss finds this uplifting, but personally I find it hugely inspiring, and makes me incredibly proud of what humanity has accomplished......
......Joss makes a big deal of the line in Angel where he says 'if nothing we do matter, then all that matters is what we do' ......

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you make a good point....and I am inclined to agree with you about the fact that humanity, left to to determine its own destiny, can accomplish remarkable things...the good of mankind is predicated upon the responsible actions of each of us. That is to say that if there is an overall agreement that things like war, hunger, oppression, inequity, etc., only bring harm to all inhabitants of this planet, then each of us should work to ensure that these conditions are not allowed to exist.

Unfortunately, the world we live in has deep roots in the belief of an intangable, supernatural deity. That belief seperates people into groups of like minded individuals who can only castigate those who don't share their views, thus bringing about mistrust and even hatred of fellow human beings.
Until mankind, as a whole, can come to terms with who we are and what our place is in this world, without relying on a mystical guideline that may or may not (not) be there, i can only see more of the same bad news that i see each and every day.

i've probably gone on too long here, and i may not be making many friends...but you can take it for what it's worth, that's the beauty of free thinking...accept, deny...or just consider any and all information, make your own decisions and live accordingly.

i'm not trying to offend anyone...just trying to understand my place in the 'verse'.... and if my place is as just an insignificant bug on the belly of Buddha...i aim to be the best bug i can be.




...and we all shine on...

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Originally posted by davec5:
Unfortunately, the world we live in has deep roots in the belief of an intangable, supernatural diety. That belief seperates people into groups of like minded individuals who can only castigate those who don't share their views, thus bringing about mistrust and even hatred of fellow human beings.
Until mankind, as a whole, can come to terms with who we are and what our place is in this world, without relying on a mystical guideline that may or may not (not) be there, i can only see more of the same bad news that i see each and every day.

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I agree with what you say, Davec5, but I'd like to add something. As frustrated as I get by people who use religious beliefs as an excuse to treat others shamefully, I have to say that I don't think this is the only cause for humanity's problems; it's more of a symptom. From what I can tell, a large part of humanity seems to always look for what is different about others, rather than what is the same or similar, whether it's religious beliefs, race, sexual orientation, hair color, favorite music, etc. This is where the problems begin.

They end when people get over it, which may or may not happen.



"We need to keep our heads so we can ... keep our heads."

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Yesss! I finally have time to write a response to this thought provoking post. I've been thinking about this for DAYS, and the fantastic part is that my theory class is actually discussing materialism and idealism. I have had something to relate those class discussions to for the last week.

So, down to business.

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I can't bring myself to hold to either pure materialism or pure idealism. Independently, I've developed a growing belief that the two realms are the same

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I hate to be a middler, too, but I agree that I cannot "hold to pure materialsim or pure idealism". As to the idea that they're the same, I'd disagree, but say that one cannot exist without the other. As Louis Althuser put it: "Ideology has a material existence." In order for a ruling class (for this discussion sake, the Alliance) to successufully integrate their ideals into a society, they must manipulate the tools around them (the matter) to portray their ideals and convice others that they should hold to those ideals as well. Althuser suggests that, in order for a person to escape the bubble of ideals the ruling class has put around them, they have to completely break out of that bubble and look at it retrospectively. What would encourage this other than an outside force--or material? Hum...

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Is there not a truth to a consistent lie that the "real" world... lacks?

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Absolutely! I think this is the question that constituted Marx's rejection of idealism. A lie can be the truth that comes from outside the ideological sphere. A good example of this would be something like Bugs Bunny in King Arthur's court. Bugs comes from another world where people are free to say and do as they please, and it would be shocking to anyone--let alone a cartoon rabbit--to see someone give up their free will in order to live. (An example of this from Firefly might be the scene where Mal tells YoSaffBridge that she should fight back if anyone tries to kill her.)

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I can see [Sartre's] point, that human will can affect emotion, but I'm not sure I agree. What, then, is the purpose of emotion?

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I'm not quite sure if you could assign a purpose to emotions. I agree with Sartre in part when he says that "we are responsible for our emotions", because I think that we are responsible for some of them. It's that whole idea that you can choose how you feel. But when it comes to something as complex as love, or even (non-ignorant)apathy, who's to say that you are responsible. Some people can't help it if they're homosexual. Some people can't help but fall in love with someone they thought they hated. Some people can't help but not care at all--though this we may scorn more than the others. I agree, it "just doesn't seem practical or satisfying."

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At play is the argument between whether we are simply products of our environment...or whether we have the capacity to affect individual change...

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How interesting is this? There are certain ideals that I hold to as an American that other people from another country would reject as stupid and trivial. However, I know that I have the capacity to change. As an American, I can study, visit, and even live in other countires. I can assimilate their ways of life into my own, and I can ultimatley pick and choose what I want to belive, how I want to live, and who I want to see myself as.
I also hold to the idea that I can influence others around me.

Now, as for my question: Why does Mal choose to name his haven after a place and time that represents when he lost everything?

The Battle of Serenity Valley was when Mal was forced out of his idealistic bubble and forced to reevaluate those ideals. Serenity Valley proved to him that he was an individual with influence--he commanded 2000 men--and that maybe his influence then wasn't guided by the right ideals. The Serenity not only represents that time in his life, but it is a symbol of his newly formed ideals, his newly acquired freedom.

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{Mal}

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