who was zoe going to draw on in the bdm?
POSTED BY: oct0gen
UPDATED: Monday, March 6, 2006 18:20
VIEWED: 11216
PAGE 3 of 6
Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
... Her loyalty to Mal trumps all other considerations.
I've got a couple more for you:
First example: In the pilot, after Dobson shoots Kaylee in the abdomen, Mal wants to dump the Tams with the Feds. Simon issues the ultimatum that he won't save Kaylee unless Mal orders them to make a run for it. It is Inara who prompts Mal to decide against his initial reaction; Kaylee's moan of pain is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Once Mal makes the decision -- and not until, not before -- Zoe immediately signals the bridge and says, "we're running".
Throughout the confrontation, Zoe says nothing like 'We've got to help them' or 'We've got to save Kaylee'. She simply waits for Mal to make his decision, regardless that Kaylee will probably die if he decides against helping the Tams escape. It's Mal's call; she will follow.
Second example: In "War Stories", Zoe immediately chooses Wash over Mal. First glance says that she unhesitatingly values Wash over Mal, right? But, in the very next scene, we can see that she's only thinking analytically. She says Niska will want to keep Mal alive for as long as possible, in order to prolong the torture and exact full retribution from Mal.
Left unsaid is that Niska has no such designs on Wash. If Wash dies (as indeed Malcolm did) Niska won't feel the need to revive him to extract more pain from him; Wash's lifeless body would just get unceremoniously dumped onto some garbage heap.
Also, since Niska is obviously fixated on Mal as the cause of his loss of reputation with his fellow psychotics, what do you think the chances were that he would've let Zoe walk out with Mal, leaving him with only Wash to torture, had she chosen Mal? Slim to none, I reckon.
She made the only choice she really had. Then, to top it off, after they get back to Serenity, she immediately prepares to leave her soul mate and throw herself vainly against Niska's fortifications in a hopeless attempt to rescue all the remaining pieces of Mal, to go along with his ear, which she already has in her possession. Wash sees her methodically configuring her loadout, and decides to go with her; the rest of the crew eventually follow suit.
But she's going back for Mal, one way or the other.
All very good, well-thought-out points. :) Thank you!
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Sickdude wrote:Quote:
Second example: In "War Stories", Zoe immediately chooses Wash over Mal. First glance says that she unhesitatingly values Wash over Mal, right? But, in the very next scene, we can see that she's only thinking analytically. She says Niska will want to keep Mal alive for as long as possible, in order to prolong the torture and exact full retribution from Mal.
Left unsaid is that Niska has no such designs on Wash. If Wash dies (as indeed Malcolm did) Niska won't feel the need to revive him to extract more pain from him; Wash's lifeless body would just get unceremoniously dumped onto some garbage heap.
Also, since Niska is obviously fixated on Mal as the cause of his loss of reputation with his fellow psychotics, what do you think the chances were that he would've let Zoe walk out with Mal, leaving him with only Wash to torture, had she chosen Mal? Slim to none, I reckon.
She made the only choice she really had. Then, to top it off, after they get back to Serenity, she immediately prepares to leave her soul mate and throw herself vainly against Niska's fortifications in a hopeless attempt to rescue all the remaining pieces of Mal, to go along with his ear, which she already has in her possession. Wash sees her methodically configuring her loadout, and decides to go with her; the rest of the crew eventually follow suit.
But she's going back for Mal, one way or the other.
Actually no. Wash had to convince Zoe that they needed to rescue Mal. Granted it didn't take much convincing. I remember this distinctly because I liked that the show made it clear who Zoe's strongest loyalties are toward.
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I don't know about that. Although Zoe wasn't the one to begin the subject, she certainly pointed it toward a Mal rescue. At first Wash talks about how crazy Mal is and how Mal saved him. Then Zoe starts talking about how Niska will want to make the pain last for days if possible. Why? The look on her face when Wash heads to the controls is pain and suffering. But at the same time, it almost seems like she is trying to convince Wash to mount a rescue without mentioning it. I always thought her response to Wash at that point seemed completely out of place. If he were really the more important of the two men to her, why would she say this Wash right after rescuing him?
Quote:
Originally posted by firefly001:Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Sickdude wrote:Quote:
Second example: In "War Stories", Zoe immediately chooses Wash over Mal. First glance says that she unhesitatingly values Wash over Mal, right? But, in the very next scene, we can see that she's only thinking analytically. She says Niska will want to keep Mal alive for as long as possible, in order to prolong the torture and exact full retribution from Mal.
Left unsaid is that Niska has no such designs on Wash. If Wash dies (as indeed Malcolm did) Niska won't feel the need to revive him to extract more pain from him; Wash's lifeless body would just get unceremoniously dumped onto some garbage heap.
Also, since Niska is obviously fixated on Mal as the cause of his loss of reputation with his fellow psychotics, what do you think the chances were that he would've let Zoe walk out with Mal, leaving him with only Wash to torture, had she chosen Mal? Slim to none, I reckon.
She made the only choice she really had. Then, to top it off, after they get back to Serenity, she immediately prepares to leave her soul mate and throw herself vainly against Niska's fortifications in a hopeless attempt to rescue all the remaining pieces of Mal, to go along with his ear, which she already has in her possession. Wash sees her methodically configuring her loadout, and decides to go with her; the rest of the crew eventually follow suit.
But she's going back for Mal, one way or the other.
Actually no. Wash had to convince Zoe that they needed to rescue Mal. Granted it didn't take much convincing. I remember this distinctly because I liked that the show made it clear who Zoe's strongest loyalties are toward.
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I just wanted to clarify. What I meant was why would Zoe tell Wash Niska's plans for torturing Mal as long as possible? I think it was to inspire (I know this is the wrong word but I couldn't think of the right one) Wash to mount a rescue and help her go back for the captain.
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Shinyfab:
To Wash's credit, though, he is not simply following Zoe's lead. It's clear -- at least in my mind -- that he has no intention of letting Mal sacrifice himself for his sake. Wash and Zoe are in perfect accord that going back for Mal is the only course of action. There are no other choices.
The whole theme of "War Stories" is that Wash cannot understand Zoe's unflinching loyalty to Mal. By the episode's end, he not only understands her devotion to Mal, he feels it in his bones. Wash has 'walked a mile in her shoes', as the saying goes.
As a result, he is no longer jealous and/or suspicious of Zoe's relationship with Mal.
Respectfully,
zoid
P.S.
Which forces me to reiterate: What kind of hell did Mal rescue Zoe from, to engender loyalty that deep and lasting? Oh, sure, the easy answer is "The Battle of Serenity"; but what specifically happened that ripped these two people in half and then grafted them together at the soul? And all protestations to the contrary notwithstanding, I don't see that loyalty wavering one iota. If she questions Mal, she does it after the fact. "Why did we do that, sir?", instead of "Why are we doing this, Mal?" She gives him input, as during the scene in which Mal decides to flee with the Tams; but it's his decision to make. She will follow him, even when she has grave misgivings. She trusts him implicitly. Something forged that bond between them; I'm wondering what that something might be.
_________________________________________________
"Take me, sir. Take me hard." -Zoe Washburne, Firefly, "War Stories"
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Shinyfab:
To Wash's credit, though, he is not simply following Zoe's lead. It's clear -- at least in my mind -- that he has no intention of letting Mal sacrifice himself for his sake. Wash and Zoe are in perfect accord that going back for Mal is the only course of action. There are no other choices.
The whole theme of "War Stories" is that Wash cannot understand Zoe's unflinching loyalty to Mal. By the episode's end, he not only understands her devotion to Mal, he feels it in his bones. Wash has 'walked a mile in her shoes', as the saying goes.
As a result, he is no longer jealous and/or suspicious of Zoe's relationship with Mal.
And, yet again, I find myself in complete agreement with you! I know, I should probably lay off the "me too" posts a bit; but you're really making all manner of perfect sense in this thread. And I enjoy reading it.
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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asarian:
These are the topics I really enjoy. I think the richness of meaning within each episode typifies Joss' and his Mutant Enemy co-writers' brilliance. I believe it is this virtuosity in adult storytelling that sets Firefly apart from any other show on television -- ever -- including those Joss has previously created.
Believing in Fate as I do, I believe Joss was born to tell Malcolm Reynold's story. Art springs from the Implicate Order of the universe; It seeks and finds Its vessel to realize Itself. Anyone who has performed artistically has felt the power flow through them as Art expresses itself. When an artist practices or hones their skills, it is only so that they may become a more suitable conduit through which Art may flow...
I know that sounds a bit outre, but believe me, them's the facts.
And here's a little something to chew on:
Mal frequently doesn't know why he makes the choices he does. As Fanty said (or was it Mingo?), he runs when he ought to fight, fights when he ought to deal; he cradles a girl who's just gone apesh*t on an entire barroom and takes her back aboard his ship.
We all know that part of it. But here's the interesting bit: When Mal tells Book about the incident, he questions his own motivations for doing so, figuring that abandoning the Tams would've been the smart play. Book says, "That's not your way, Mal". Mal says, "So I've got a 'way'? Is that better than a plan?"
The word 'tao' means 'way' or 'path' (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao). According to Chinese philosophy, 'Tao' is definitely better than a plan. Mal, who is at odds with God, is talking to a man of God, who is convinced that Mal has a tao, and Mal fancies the notion.
This subtle interplay of words and juxtaposition of archetypal characters -- the apostate and the preacher -- is, again, sheer genius. And the really cool part, to me, is that it probably floats right by most viewers' conscious minds and settles deeper, where archetypes hold sway.
Respectfully,
zoid
P.S.
Art will have Its way with Joss. We'll get more Firefly. He may be feelin' a little whipped right now; but, Firefly's not finished, and it won't leave him be until it is. That's my prediction.
_________________________________________________
"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'
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Bear in mind that Zoe doesn't just use her gun for shooting - she quite often uses the large trigger guard to add a bit of force to her punch (for instance, in the bar brawl in The Train Job).
mrben
"Carpe Aptenodytes"
http://www.jedimoose.org
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
asarian:
These are the topics I really enjoy. I think the richness of meaning within each episode typifies Joss' and his Mutant Enemy co-writers' brilliance. I believe it is this virtuosity in adult storytelling that sets Firefly apart from any other show on television -- ever -- including those Joss has previously created.
Believing in Fate as I do, I believe Joss was born to tell Malcolm Reynold's story. Art springs from the Implicate Order of the universe; It seeks and finds Its vessel to realize Itself. Anyone who has performed artistically has felt the power flow through them as Art expresses itself. When an artist practices or hones their skills, it is only so that they may become a more suitable conduit through which Art may flow...
I know that sounds a bit outre, but believe me, them's the facts.
And here's a little something to chew on:
Mal frequently doesn't know why he makes the choices he does. As Fanty said (or was it Mingo?), he runs when he ought to fight, fights when he ought to deal; he cradles a girl who's just gone apesh*t on an entire barroom and takes her back aboard his ship.
We all know that part of it. But here's the interesting bit: When Mal tells Book about the incident, he questions his own motivations for doing so, figuring that abandoning the Tams would've been the smart play. Book says, "That's not your way, Mal". Mal says, "So I've got a 'way'? Is that better than a plan?"
The word 'tao' means 'way' or 'path' (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao). According to Chinese philosophy, 'Tao' is definitely better than a plan. Mal, who is at odds with God, is talking to a man of God, who is convinced that Mal has a tao, and Mal fancies the notion.
This subtle interplay of words and juxtaposition of archetypal characters -- the apostate and the preacher -- is, again, sheer genius. And the really cool part, to me, is that it probably floats right by most viewers' conscious minds and settles deeper, where archetypes hold sway.
Respectfully,
zoid
P.S.
Art will have Its way with Joss. We'll get more Firefly. He may be feelin' a little whipped right now; but, Firefly's not finished, and it won't leave him be until it is. That's my prediction.
_________________________________________________
"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'
Zoid,
You have a way of saying what we all know in our soul right out there for us all to see. I think I knew every one of those things ( it was archetype and deep down I knew it) without recognizing it at the forefront of my mind.
Did I mention I love it when you post because I know I'm going to be enlightened and that I'm proud to know you? There... I just did.
Thank you.
And I agree about Joss not being done. This thing flowed into him, it's not done with him yet.
It's flowed into all of us too, very powerfully, and it's not done with us yet either.
" You hold. Hold til I get back." Mal
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FollowMal wrote:
Quote:
...And I agree about Joss not being done. This thing flowed into him, it's not done with him yet.
It's flowed into all of us too, very powerfully, and it's not done with us yet either.
First, thank you for your kind regards. I'm flattered, and that's something I've never been very good at dealing with. Thank you most kindly.
As to the quoted text: Let's just hope and pray that Joss doesn't 'lose his instrument' in the meantime. Hollywood is a Siren, singing her irresistible song on a reef made up of the bones of artists. 'Come', she croons, 'I will make you famous, rich, powerful.'
Many refuse to bend to the whims of Hollywood, insisting on telling their own stories in their own way, and are banished, silenced. Others yield to temptation and bow to The Dollar, producing either formulaic crap or idealistic (whatever topic is hot on the minds of the media) pap. Either way, fail or succeed, we thus lose the artist and the Art. Aaaahhh-choo! *George Lucas* Sniffle... Excuse me. Must've gotten something stuck up my nose, there.
It takes a rare person to succeed in Hollywood without losing everything that they are in the process. So, I'm praying for Joss not to lose his soul, whether he likes it or not. Human beings, lovers of Art, need him to remain intact.
If you're not keen on the notion of one true God, you could always dance naked around a fire, flowers braided in your hair, and sing the names of the Nine Muses. I don't mind.
I think JW's been in a ménage à trois with Melpomene and Thalia for years. I've always been partial to Erato (and she to me).
Mythically,
zoid
P.S.
According to Greek mythology, the Sirens were born of Terpsichore, the Muse of dance and music (dramatic chorus). You gotta be careful what you pray for in Hollywood, and who you pray to...
_________________________________________________
"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'
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