I know everyone wants a new Firefly series, but...
POSTED BY: Seba
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 1, 2006 03:15
VIEWED: 14993
PAGE 4 of 6
Neh.
The return of sci-fi characters for extremely shoddy reasons is a staple of the genre.
You can always clone/evil twin/higher being them back into existence, as long as someone's paying the bill.
I think Joss did it on purpose. It would seem that he believes that Serenity is the final sign out on the Firefly universe.
Only thing I don't understand is why he allowed Serenity to be rebuilt in the closing shots. You kind of have to go one way or the other. Mal should be moved into a new life or something. He's not just going to be a "low-profile" smuggler after the movie's events.
In my opinion,it's the rebuilding of Serenity that's a weak point, not the death of main characters.
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Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
What if that "incredibly hot woman" was completely evil? You mean to tell me that if a woman is "hot" then that is the deciding factor if she is allowed to live or die? What if Inara was a fat, greasy looking cow...would it be easier for you to write her off you pebble-brained vermin?
River
They could shrink your brains down 10 fold, and it would STILL rattle around inside the azz of a mosquito.
Okay, apparently you lack the intellectual capacity to see my playful light hearted comments for what they were and chose to get nasty. Please allow me to respond. Whether she should live or die really depends on the direction of the story in theory. However since television is business, it really comes down to whether the character is compelling or not and can hold the viewers attention. Yes..evil and hot is good for business, remember Saffron, idiot? Yes, hot women do bring men to shows. Do you think it is just a coincidence that every woman on that show is way above average in looks? It's not the world I created, but it is reality, so keep your illusions of men who only care about inner beauty while you endure another dateless night.
Joss sacrificed two great characters for the sake of the movie. I actually saw the movie before the series so it didn't really impact me until after I bought the DVD set. Now, I respect his direction, though I don't like it. Inara is a good character. Some of the best scenes are her playful dialogue with Mal. If she were a "fat greasy looking cow", those scenes would not work, whether you want to believe that or not. (I need to wrap this up, because this is probably now stretching the limits of your short term memory)
Your "fat greasy looking cow" comment must hit pretty close to home for you to get so defensive. Put down the donuts down, buy a treadmill, and lighten up.
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Well, I agree with that. Edmonson is mighty, and while Newman was good, he wasn't Edmonson-Good (TM).
But back to the point. What I think everyone is missing about Seba's point is that we didn't get enough time to explore and know the now deceased character's, and so their deaths are meaningless.
I disagree. The fact that you wish to pin the death on someone else proves that you care about these characters. As a person who saw Serenity before Firefly, I have to say that both deaths hit me hard, Wash's harder than Book's. It didn't take me episodes of story to make me love his character. Now that I have that background, I'm hit harder by his abrupt and cruel death (which was a death, by the way, hence the grave).
Inara has a hidden past, too, mind you. I find her's more interesting than Book's, which is saying plenty. The fact that her role in the movie is not as key as Wash's hardly makes her a good candidate for death; it would make her death less significant to the audience, which, if I read what you're saying properly, is hardly to be desired.
If we get a trilogy (or WHEN!), Book's past is next to explore, then Inara's. I can almost swear by it. The fact that the "balance" has been disrupted makes us as an audience angry, yes, but curious to see how it will right itself again, as all balances do.
In sad news, though, Simon or Kaylee are next to die. I can feel it.
Ben
EDIT: And will everyone please lay off the flaming? We're trying to have an intelligent discussion here, one that is very valid. Don't go insulting serious participants, even those who put in lighthearted or sarcastic comments.
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Flint Fireforge died in the first book of the Dragonlance Chronicles, Sturm Brightblade in the second. Despite this, they are among the most popular characters in the Dragonlance book series. Now granted since then there have been dozens of books detailing their lives prior to the Dragonlance Chronicles, but at the time...
Anyway, the fact that you even CARE that they are dead proves that Whedon did his job and if you know anything of Whedon's other work you know he enjoys killing characters off. And it does make his work more real, but it also makes you treasure the time you get to have with those characters all the more. Think about Boromir from Lord of the Rings, think about what kind of impact he had on the series and how short a time relatively speaking he was in the novels. I've never had a problem with death. Sure, if the series is ever continued I'll miss Wash and Book, but I'm also reminded that they were important enough that I was touched when they died and that is great story telling.
---
Where's the KABOOM?! There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom! *sigh* Delays...delays...
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Quote:
There are people who think that maybe the allience found him, saved him, and took him prisoner for info on serenity as they were still being chased.
Think we'd've heard a little somethin' from Zoe or Mal, had that been the case. The way I see it, Wash is dead. Gone. A *former* pilot. If he were alive, even a *little* alive, Mal and Zoe wouldn't have left him there. No way, no how. Not for the Reavers. If they couldn't save him or move him, Mal would have shot him just so the Reavers wouldn't get him. And if he's dead, the Reavers don't want him, have no use for him. No fun eatin' 'em if they ain't kickin', do ma?
And if Mal & Zoe had left Wash there as he was (impaled and creepifyin'), and he hadn't been there when they got back, you think they'd have mentioned a li'l something about it while they were talking about the ship's rebuilding and all. Maybe just a little mention, something along the lines of "Don't worry; we'll find him." Or "I'll kill every Reaver in the 'verse for what they did to him." Or "Your Mister seems kind of up-and-about for a dead guy. Any ideas where he toddled off to?"
So, to me, Wash is well and truly dead. He'll be missed, and the 'verse will seem emptier for his loss, but he's gone. Don't mean Joss won't find a way to have him in any future installments, but they'll be either flashbacks or visions (hauntings, if you will), near as I can conjure. And I'd rather have it that way than a clone, evil twin, identical cousin, Gilligan-doppelganger, or anything stupid like what's already been done to death in a thousand other shows.
I've lost friends - close friends, BEST friends - and so far, none of them have ever come back. (Well, that one guy, but he was kinda weird to begin with, and he only did it the once... ;) ) Anyway, that ain't how the 'verse works. In this 'verse, you die, you stay gone.
Mike
"I think we should call it YOUR GRAVE!!"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Murkymerc:Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
What if that "incredibly hot woman" was completely evil? You mean to tell me that if a woman is "hot" then that is the deciding factor if she is allowed to live or die? What if Inara was a fat, greasy looking cow...would it be easier for you to write her off you pebble-brained vermin?
River
They could shrink your brains down 10 fold, and it would STILL rattle around inside the azz of a mosquito.
Okay, apparently you lack the intellectual capacity to see my playful light hearted comments for what they were and chose to get nasty. Please allow me to respond. Whether she should live or die really depends on the direction of the story in theory. However since television is business, it really comes down to whether the character is compelling or not and can hold the viewers attention. Yes..evil and hot is good for business, remember Saffron, idiot? Yes, hot women do bring men to shows. Do you think it is just a coincidence that every woman on that show is way above average in looks? It's not the world I created, but it is reality, so keep your illusions of men who only care about inner beauty while you endure another dateless night.
Joss sacrificed two great characters for the sake of the movie. I actually saw the movie before the series so it didn't really impact me until after I bought the DVD set. Now, I respect his direction, though I don't like it. Inara is a good character. Some of the best scenes are her playful dialogue with Mal. If she were a "fat greasy looking cow", those scenes would not work, whether you want to believe that or not. (I need to wrap this up, because this is probably now stretching the limits of your short term memory)
Your "fat greasy looking cow" comment must hit pretty close to home for you to get so defensive. Put down the donuts down, buy a treadmill, and lighten up.
Not really. A fat greasy cow is something I am not, but it seems that that comment regarding fat greasy cows got your limited attention. There are websites for that sort of thing if you are into it, and I suspect you are.
Your post just shows what a knuckle-dragging idiot you really are. Look, I'll give you a tip...its called fire and you can use it for a great many things. Next I show you what a wheel can do for you...it might change your life, or in your case it might not because you are to stupid to get it.
River
You are way to stupid to live
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You tell 'em River!
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Seba wrote:
Quote:
I'd like to repeat what I said earlier in that I'm not opposed to killing characters in general. The point I made is that he's rendered these character's meaningless to the series given that we've really only just been introduced to them in terms of content and now they're gone. It's the equivalent of him having killed them off 2 episodes after Objects In Space. It's just too soon. We've only just met and are already saying goodbye.
I agree!!!
It seems unconscionable that the author should be so out of touch with his audience as to kill off the witty one; the one who best represents the real-life, everyday values of his audience; the one cast member who represents the voice of reason in this work of drama.
To have thus killed off Mercutio, before we ever even really had a chance to know him...
Oops! Wrong website! I was looking for shakespeare_is_a_hack(dot)com...
Cluelessly,
zoid
P.S.
Killing off the 'wrong' characters was a stroke of genius. Killing the 'right' story-fodder characters is both mundane and commonplace. Killing his best characters makes one ask, "Why in the name of God did (insert character name) have to die?", in much the same way we ask why beautiful, intelligent and loving people die young in our real lives. It makes the story true-to-life, meaning 'unpredictable'. And aren't we always complaining how predictable Hollywood has become? Well, you can't have your cake and eat it, too...
-zed
_________________________________________________
"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Seba wrote:Quote:
I'd like to repeat what I said earlier in that I'm not opposed to killing characters in general. The point I made is that he's rendered these character's meaningless to the series given that we've really only just been introduced to them in terms of content and now they're gone. It's the equivalent of him having killed them off 2 episodes after Objects In Space. It's just too soon. We've only just met and are already saying goodbye.
I agree!!!
It seems unconscionable that the author should be so out of touch with his audience as to kill off the witty one; the one who best represents the real-life, everyday values of his audience; the one cast member who represents the voice of reason in this work of drama.
To have thus killed off Mercutio, before we ever even really had a chance to know him...
Oops! Wrong website! I was looking for shakespeare_is_a_hack(dot)com...
Cluelessly,
zoid
_________________________________________________
"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'
That's a valid set of points you two. As someone who didn't mind the killing of those two key characters you have made me rethink the idea of why Joss did so.
I guess you don't need to hear another interpretation and in doing so, a defence of Joss and his decision, but I think from my personal point of view those final twenty minutes would not have had quite the same impact upon me if I weren't sitting there watching the screen in fear that Kaylee may go next or Zoe, or Inara or even Jayne!! The fact that Wash in particular was killed off kind of amplified the danger the characters where in and that thereby aided to the tension needed for the final 20 mins.
The
Somnambulist
www.cirqus.com
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Wash and Books deaths hit me, of course they did, i love these characters. Ive lost really close friends, two before christmas within 24 hours of each other and that was really crappy, not bad luck, just life being crappy.
Thats how it goes, life hits you in the face once in a while, and all you can do is swear and rub your cheek better and get on with it.
Now, i have read a few interviews in magazines with Whedon where he has said that Serenity and Firefly are not/maybe not one of the same, being that Serenity was either an abrieviated version of Fireflys intended series run or that Serenity is a stand alone movie project that has nothing in common with the series. In other words, what happened in the movie doesnt necarserilly translate onto the series. He had said that Wash and Book could return in a sequal or series.
Books death was a shock, mainly because i wanted to see more of his back story, his military/operative/agent type thing he couldve been doing before disapearing into obscurity and joing the crew of Serenity, or maybe, in a twist, he couldve been assigned to follow Simon and River and went deep under cover. I dont know, i can only speculate and hope and dream fan-boyish dreams.
Washs death was also a huge shock in that it was so sudden and unexpected, ifelt like standing up in the theatre and shouting, "What the f**k was that about...". But i agree with Tudyks view in the official movie magazine "I always thought it would be a good idea to kill Wash, maybe in the second or early third season. I pitched this to Joss and he was up for it, it was shock value. its not like "Go, ill hold the fort for you and fight them all off" its rather, 'I land the ship, i quip, and im dead.' It was his idea, and it certainly worked for me because i was gripping my girlfriends hand all through the movie, now thats FANTASTIC story telling, and thats what movies are about.
As the end drew closer i was certain this was Whedons bow out, Serenity was destroyed, Book and was were dead, mal was fighting a losing battle and, one by one, they all started getting hits. I was certain he was killing everyone off and saying goodbye to one of the best sci-fi creations of all time. But thankfully that didnt happen.
The two deaths are similar to that of the Star Trek movie series, in ST:II they killed Spock, it was Nimoys idea, then all the fans hit back, campaigned for god knows how long and got a WHOLE third movie devoted to finding Spock, and Nimoy directed, executively produced and helped script.
You never know what could happen.
Yeah, i dont like the fact that two great characters were killed off for no reason, but im living with it, its done. Afterall theyre characters, and if ive learnt anything in books etc, characters are alive, theyre never dead.
I like to think that Joss knows EXACTLY what hes doing with the Firefly/Serenity thing. By that i mean that he has this master plan for everything. Maybe im wrong i dont know.
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