Simon and Kaylee - Meant to last or meant to not?
POSTED BY: TamSibling
UPDATED: Thursday, February 16, 2006 22:14
VIEWED: 8429
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I suppose I took your comment of optimisim to the point of illusion to mean naieve. Kaylee is certainly optimistic, but my argument is that I believe it is a matter of choice, not necessarily DNA.
As for the love of Serenity not being enough to keep them together, you are certainly correct, but it is enough to bring them together don't you think? And I have to wonder that if the idea of Kaylee not being a challenging personality isn't the point of interest for Mal. After all his shenanigans with Inara, it could conceiveable drive him to someone more straight-forward.
In terms of what keeps the relationship interesting, you bring up some good points. However, I think their staus of inequality would be a prime area to mine. How else could Mal learn to curb his acidic tongue but by damaging Kaylee. That's a scenario I've seen played out dozens of times in my own life. Hard-nosed types brought softer by the threat of hurting someone they care about. I could see it changing Mal, not Kaylee.
All in all, I must compliment you on your well thought-out approach AgentRouka.
Remember, that but for one trifling exception, the entire universe is made up of others.- Oliver Wendall Holmes
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Quote:
Originally posted by milford:
I suppose I took your comment of optimisim to the point of illusion to mean naieve. Kaylee is certainly optimistic, but my argument is that I believe it is a matter of choice, not necessarily DNA.
You'll get no argument on that from me. I completely agree. :)
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As for the love of Serenity not being enough to keep them together, you are certainly correct, but it is enough to bring them together don't you think? And I have to wonder that if the idea of Kaylee not being a challenging personality isn't the point of interest for Mal. After all his shenanigans with Inara, it could conceiveable drive him to someone more straight-forward.
The way I see it, it's exactly that child-like, innocent and open quality to her that has Mal treating her like a daughter. I just don't see his response to that changing, no matter how things do or don't work out with anyone else.
He could easily be looking for someone more straight-forward, I just don't think that it'd be someone as vulnerable as Kaylee, but again someone with a core of independent strength, who chooses to see the world with more realism.
That's, for me, a quality that's been inherent in all the women Mal has been attracted to on the show.
Inara - self-sufficient, self-confident, she'll confront his anger head-on, even in a very tense situation.
Saffron - showing her determined side is what eventually trips him up and in "Trash" you can tell he can't suppress a slice of respect for her incredible resourcefulness.
Nandi - she's a leader in exactly the same way Mal is.
For Mal to be sexually and romantically attracted to a person he has to protect from the cruelty of the 'verse just doesn't jive for me. It immediately gets him Papa Bear mode.
In fact, all these women have in common is the ability to let Mal take a break from protecting, like a vacation from the reality of being "Captain".
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In terms of what keeps the relationship interesting, you bring up some good points. However, I think their staus of inequality would be a prime area to mine. How else could Mal learn to curb his acidic tongue but by damaging Kaylee. That's a scenario I've seen played out dozens of times in my own life. Hard-nosed types brought softer by the threat of hurting someone they care about. I could see it changing Mal, not Kaylee.
But this she is already doing. Kaylee's presence gentles Mal's harsh side. That's the state of things right now.
He's not changing because of it, though. He's still the "mean old man", he just curbs his tongue around her.
It's directly tied to his paternal attitude of protecting her from the harsher aspects of life, of the people, of himself, which in my eyes, actually prevents any feelings of attraction, as it has a patronizing flavor.
It'd be different if they met on an equal plane in at least one significant aspect of their lives. But they don't. Mal is always in the superior position.
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Quote:Things always change, that's why it's so hard to shop for pants. Mal's fatherly/big bortherly feelings toward Kaylee give them the perfect jumping off point for a relationship.
The way I see it, it's exactly that child-like, innocent and open quality to her that has Mal treating her like a daughter. I just don't see his response to that changing, no matter how things do or don't work out with anyone else.
Quote:That may be true, however, how are those relationships working out? Mal and Inara have exacly nada except potential and Saffron tried to kill him. What if that's because they're both too similar? Kaylee's approach to life might bring Mal a relief from conflict, which is a strong foundation for a relationship.
He could easily be looking for someone more straight-forward, I just don't think that it'd be someone as vulnerable as Kaylee, but again someone with a core of independent strength, who chooses to see the world with more realism.
Quote:Not necessarily. I think it's a mistaken assumption that Kaylee needs protection. Open does not necessarily equal vulnerable and helpless. She doesn't hesitate at all when it comes to her ship, and I think there's more of that in her.
For Mal to be sexually and romantically attracted to a person he has to protect from the cruelty of the 'verse just doesn't jive for me. It immediately gets him Papa Bear mode.
Quote:I didn't say he was, only that this thread had potential. Kaylee and Mal isn't as far fetched as one would think.
But this she is already doing. Kaylee's presence gentles Mal's harsh side. That's the state of things right now.
He's not changing because of it, though. He's still the "mean old man", he just curbs his tongue around her.
Remember, that but for one trifling exception, the entire universe is made up of others.- Oliver Wendall Holmes
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Quote:
Originally posted by milford:
Things always change, that's why it's so hard to shop for pants. Mal's fatherly/big bortherly feelings toward Kaylee give them the perfect jumping off point for a relationship.
That sounds so pervy, though. How does one go from fatherly to hot and bothered unless both people change in a fairly fundamental way?
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He could easily be looking for someone more straight-forward, I just don't think that it'd be someone as vulnerable as Kaylee, but again someone with a core of independent strength, who chooses to see the world with more realism.
That may be true, however, how are those relationships working out? Mal and Inara have exacly nada except potential and Saffron tried to kill him. What if that's because they're both too similar? Kaylee's approach to life might bring Mal a relief from conflict, which is a strong foundation for a relationship.
Mal and Inara don't work out (yet) because their circumstances keep them apart, not because of their personalities. They are actually very compatible, when it comes to their tempers.
Mal never did have a relationship with YoSaffBridge that didn't work out, of course, but the one moment where she manages to seduce him is when she shows him the strong side of her fictional "Saffron" character. When she stops being in need of protection.
And Nandi, well, that was a one-night-stand but it was one based on affection and mutual respect and attraction.
I'm not using these women as examples for successful relationships but to highlight the qualities that romantically attract Mal to a woman, which are qualities that Kaylee does not share.
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Not necessarily. I think it's a mistaken assumption that Kaylee needs protection. Open does not necessarily equal vulnerable and helpless. She doesn't hesitate at all when it comes to her ship, and I think there's more of that in her.
It's not her open-book approach to life that makes her vulnerable. Look at Wash, he's very open but he's not vulnerable like Kaylee.
And Kaylee is indeed vulnerable. Not helpless but vulnerable. Very vulnerable compared to everyone else on the boat, including River. It's always some man pulling her out of a crisis, with the notable exception of her pulling Wash to safety in "Heart of Gold".
Serenity - Jayne insults her and she's downright paralyzed, letting Mal do the work of defending her.
Shindig - when the girls insult her, she can't stand up for herself. She stands there all helpless and hurt until the old guy arrives to save the day.
Safe - She's almost overwhelmed by the presence of injured Book.
Out of Gas - Mal has to all but baby-talk her into trying to fix the engine. Just like a child.
War Stories - the gunfight. She doesn't even try, once she's left alone. (Note, this is a normal human being reaction, but relative to the rest of the crew... very vulnerable.)
The Message - she's immediately transfixed by Tracey and his attention to her, without even thinking to question his fairly unethical behavior from moment one, simply because it flatters her.
Objects in Space - The one Early picks out to threaten into doing his bidding is Kaylee because no one else would have been cowed with as little resistance. (Again, normal human being, but you have to compare it to the life she chose to lead on the ship and how everyone else deals.)
Then she keeps setting up "perfect moments" for Simon to take advantage of, and then pouts when he fumbles them, instead of just plain telling him how she feels.
She is often feeling groundlessly inadequate, anticipating failings, apologizing for completely understandable behavior.
The downside to her child-like sunshine personality is that she harbors insecurities like a teenaged girl, not the self-confidence of a grown woman.
And that keeps Mal treating her like a child. An inspiring child that keeps him hopeful but that he also doesn't always treat with the respect she would deserve as a full "
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Quote:
Originally posted by milford:Quote:Things always change, that's why it's so hard to shop for pants. Mal's fatherly/big bortherly feelings toward Kaylee give them the perfect jumping off point for a relationship.
The way I see it, it's exactly that child-like, innocent and open quality to her that has Mal treating her like a daughter. I just don't see his response to that changing, no matter how things do or don't work out with anyone else.
Umm, we will have to disagree, what you see as a jumping point, I see as dead end. Can we please move this thread in a direction where fatherly/big brother feelings CANNOT turn into something sexual.
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Well, to pull this back to whether or not Simon and Kaylee would work...I think they could. I think it would be very difficult, but what about love isn't? I believe that their love for each other extends way beyond lust and just wanting each other for sex (okay, redundant). Maybe this is just my naive romanticism, but part of me honestly believes that if they tried, they could work. Simon loves Kaylee because she is a breath of fresh air from what he has grown up with. She is sweet and unorthodox and cheerful and sunny, and she immediately is River's friend (big push in her direction). Kaylee sees in Simon something she hasn't seen much of either. While these can't be long-lasting benefits to a relationship, they certainly help start one. They get along with each other so well (eg, Objects in Space) and no matter how mad Kaylee gets at Simon when he screws up, she comes back around because she loves him for him. Love isn't forever getting along, it isn't always having the same interests...when opposites attract can sometimes be the longest lasting relationship. My parents are certainly an example of that rule (not that any of you know them, lol). Anyway, as this is Jossverse and he SO loves to screw with relationships, I believe that he maybe could find it in his heart to keep Simon and Kaylee together because I believe (man, I love that phrase) that they truly could work.
And as to Mal/Kaylee...no. Ew, that would be very wrong. They are like brother and sister, and that just...no. Simon and Kaylee...I think they could last just because of the amount of love and caring that I have picked up from them.
"Were there monkeys? Some terrifying space monkeys maybe got loose?"
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My brief opinion is that the relationship wouldn't have lasted.
Obviously the show was canned before the relationship could properly mature.
*(Solitary tear shed for THAT network executive's fait in the afterlife)*
That being said. Simon did not ever treat kaylee with the respect that she deserved. I expect that this would become a sticking point in later character development of future "Firefly" scripts.
However, since Joss only had the chance to make "Serenity", he just decided to give the audience what they wanted and let it go at that.
I guarantee that if the show had continued, Simon would have had to experience some pretty major expansion of character to keep Kaylee's interest.
Of course, I'm a hopeless Jewel fan, but I still think that the writers were working the series, and the Kaylee/Simon relationship into conflict when things got cancelled.
Well that's what I think...
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Quote:
Originally posted by sileespacemonkeys:
And as to Mal/Kaylee...no. Ew, that would be very wrong. They are like brother and sister, and that just...no. Simon and Kaylee...I think they could last just because of the amount of love and caring that I have picked up from them.
I find it real sweet, not to mention uplifting, that people want to keep Kaylee safe. :) Usually I react that way with River (now, don't get me wrong, I'm protective of Kaylee, too; I guess I'm just less triggered around her).
Simon and Kaylee, yes, I still believe it. Simon, in the words of Jayne, can be a trifle pompous. With Kaylee around -- a person he would, under normal circumstances, never have met or given the time of day -- he is forced to re-evaluate the way he interacts with people; which enriches him. And Kaylee has in Simon, well, ... Not that Kaylee is superficial; but with Simon, noble as a grape, I think, Kaylee can grow to realize she's worth much more than the Besters of this world. They can do wonders for each other. And I love wonders; that's why I love the show; why, that, and River, of course. :)
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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>Well, to pull this back to whether or not Simon and Kaylee would work...
God thank you....I was so excited to see many posts and most of them aren't even about the darn topic.
From what I could see in the last episodes of the series, they were pushing S/K together, slowly, teasingly, just like it should be on a series. The only episode where I missed something touching between them was when they were going their separate ways in Out of Gas. Mal and Inara got an awkward goodbye...
The beginning of Objects in Space shows how comfortable they are becoming with one another.
Also, its not that Simon is missing Kaylee's signals, I get the impression from the perspective of simply viewing the series, that he 1. didn't want/didn't expect to get involved while he was a fugitive running from the law
2. is very uncomfortable around a girl he truly does like
3. isn't used to Kaylee's outgoing brand of sexual energy, having grown up in a structured, proper atmosphere like the Core planets.
Kaylee has to break down his barriers little by little. He was completely out of his element in the black, and on the run, protecting the sister he gave up his entire life for.
I think Kaylee admires that and you see their friendship grow and become more comfortable throughout the series.
Joss is asked about S/K's relationship in the Question/Answer session on the Australian Serenity dvd and really gives no answer . . .
"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."
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It's taken me a while to determine how best to weigh in again, as I've tried to digest all your comments. It seems to me we're still pretty split down the middle, but there are a few things I think are worth discussing (or disputing)!
1. Joss is against love. - Now, wait just a cotton-pickin' minute! I don't think Joss is anti-love and therefore would have made it so S/K couldn't work. I think he would have put obstacles in their path (see: Angel/Buffy, Angel/Cordelia, Fred/Wesley, Inara/Mal) to really test each of them, as characters and as a couple.
2. Kaylee could/should end up with Mal. - I am in the "ewww" camp on this one. I think that while Mal does love Kaylee unconditionally, it is as a big brother, surrogate father more than anything else.
3. The fact that Kaylee needs or inspires protection makes her seem vulnerable. - I don't think so. The fact that Mal, Simon, Jayne, even Zoe want to protect Kaylee is because she represents the vulnerability in them all. As Joss has said before, Kaylee is the heart of Serenity and the heart of everyone on board. They want to keep her safe because they want to protect their own feelings and stay safe in their world.
I think Kaylee is a very strong character, deeply grounded and willing to stick up for herself. The fact that the other characters on the ship want to protect her shows they are projecting their feelings of insecurity on her. I think Simon sees that while he wants to keep her safe, he also has his hands full keeping River safe and enjoys the fact that Kaylee is self-sufficient. Her optimism helps to lift him up and protect his "heart" when he feels himself sinking.
After reading some more fan fiction and reading these posts, I think I'm coming around to a Kaylee/Simon lasting relationship. Although, on the subject of fan fiction ... while there is no doubt S/K would be going at it like bunnies, why does everyone insist they would be irresponsible and end up having a baby out of wedlock? Or get married right away?
I don't see either one happening soon. For one thing, can you see Mal putting up with a baby on his boat? If it was Zoe's maybe, but only out of respect for Wash.
I think Simon would wait a very, very long time to pop the question and I think that Kaylee would probably be the one to do it. Simon still doesn't know what to do with himself or his life, especially if he doesn't have to be on the run anymore. I think this would lead him to let things stay they way they are before making more drastic changes.
But I think he'd be madly in love and do everything to let Kaylee know how important she is to him - when he wasn't sticking his foot in his mouth, that is.
****
I really think I made in difference in their lives. Me, Jayne Cobb.
I know your name, jackass.
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