Logical Fallacies in Serenity

POSTED BY: CTHawk
UPDATED: Sunday, February 12, 2006 02:26
VIEWED: 9323
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CTHAWK

Friday, February 10, 2006 7:18 PM

I know people are going to hate me for this, but...
I've been watching Serenity (movie) a few times recently and it strikes me there are a couple logical fallacies which baffle me.

1. The philosophical context of the show seems to be that people cannot be made better. Mal even says this in his monologue. Yet somehow the fates of the entire crew eventually rest in the hands of River who has been made better (although temporarily insane).

2. The operative does not kill/capture the crew because he is disillusioned by the Reaver information. It seems to me that the operative would accept that the Alliance is/has/will do bad things in order to eventually make a better world. I don't think we would really care the the Alliance is responsible for bad things.

3. This is something throughout the series that doesn't make sense, but I guess just needs to be accepted. The Reavers have been driven to virtual insanity by the Pax yet they don't turn on each other and can still operate complex space machinery.

DIAVO

Friday, February 10, 2006 7:27 PM

1.) A paradox? Nah. It makes sense:
If River hadn't been "made better" she couldn't've saved the BDHs. Ok. But if River hadn't been "made better", the crew wouldn't've needed saving by her; they wouldn't have been in that situation.
Also keep in mind, the Pax and River are not supposed to be together. The Pax was an experiment in weeding out aggression. River was an experiment in...creating a 'weapon' (perhaps the next gen of Operative).

2.) Operative: "Oh man, they didn't say anything about this when I signed up! This isn't how it's supposed to be; the Alliance is supposed to be great and moral, *I'm* supposed to be the monster. I'm outta here." ;P

3.) They aren't incapable by the maddness, just ultra-agressive. Possibile they band together due to a common identity. "Oh, you're a Reaver too? Cool, let's go kill something together! Arrrgh!"
They haven't turned into idiots either -- pilots can still fly, computer tech can still repair computers (tho probably w/ a sledge hammer!)

Just a few thoughts...

DAVESHAYNE

Friday, February 10, 2006 7:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CTHawk:
1. The philosophical context of the show seems to be that people cannot be made better. Mal even says this in his monologue. Yet somehow the fates of the entire crew eventually rest in the hands of River who has been made better (although temporarily insane).

A) The philosophical context of the show is the power (both for good and for evil) of belief.

B) Mal says, "Sooner or later they will come back to the notion that they can make people better." So it's possible he is only supposing that it's the Alliance that is incapable of causing improvements, which leads us to...,

C) None of the Alliance conditioning led to River taking on the roomfull of reavers. That was a conscious decision made out of love and a personal sense of duty.

Quote:
2. The operative does not kill/capture the crew because he is disillusioned by the Reaver information. It seems to me that the operative would accept that the Alliance is/has/will do bad things in order to eventually make a better world. I don't think we would really care the the Alliance is responsible for bad things.

The Opperative is willing to do evil things to make better worlds. He loses the belief that he is working for people who are making better worlds and is therefor no longer willing to do evil things at their behest. A possibly unlikely but not logically impossibe reaction.

Quote:
3. This is something throughout the series that doesn't make sense, but I guess just needs to be accepted. The Reavers have been driven to virtual insanity by the Pax yet they don't turn on each other and can still operate complex space machinery.

Maybe reavers don't taste good and it's certain that they can't feel fear so it's likely they won't make fun victims of torture therefor it would seem reavers couldn't get any gratification out of taking each other on. As to opperating the spaceships they're crazy but they aint stupid. More dificult for me to swallow is that they haven't all gone flying into the core worlds raping and killing long ago which has lead me to suppose that when they are floating in the empty wastes they are actively trying to supress their tendencies but that eventually the urge to commit the ol' ultraviolence gets too great.

David

You wanna go, Little Man?
Only if it's someplace nice with candle light.

KWICKO

Friday, February 10, 2006 7:39 PM

#2: The Operative. He doesn't let them go because he's disillusioned. He's disillusioned because he failed, utterly. His primary aim was to ensure that what was in River's head DID NOT GET OUT. He completely failed in that mission once Mal got the information about Miranda broadcast all over the 'verse. THAT is where The Operative's disillusionment stems from; he failed his mission, and now what's the point of killing them? The news is out, and he's lost his way and his purpose.

#1: River. They didn't make her "better". They made her crazy as a sh*thouse rat. They made her a weapon and a psychic as well, but don't forget that they made her almost completely insane in the process. And I don't have a problem with Mal & Crew using that weapon against the thing that created it.

#3: Reavers. Well, they're seriously effed up in the head, but that doesn't mean they can't work together toward a common goal, or that they've forgotten how to do things they knew how to do before the PAX...

Just my take on things,

Mike

"Kaylee, find that kid that's taking a dirt nap with baby Jesus; we need a hood ornament."

NCBC

Friday, February 10, 2006 8:00 PM

My two cents..

1. Its pretty clear that the argument is that its wrong to make people better, against their will or without their consent specifically. While River is physically superior, she is not BETTER when you look at the mental instability and such that went along with it. her inability to suppress feeling is just one.

2. the operative found out that even his willingness to "believe hard" had limits. it was a moment that changed him. He found out there was a little bit more man in his self-procalimed monster than even he believed, and certainly more than his superiors believed.

3. Reaver... the reavers we have seen were all in BATTLE MODE frenzy. They all go savage monstrosity goodness and all that. But the other reavers, the ones piloting the ship and such, not directly engaged in the frenzy, are obviously not so insane. Its easily arguable that the reavers are somewhat sane, except when they frenzy. Think sharks. just keep swimming just keep swimming just keep...blood...dieeatdieeatdieeatdieeatdieeat

at least, thats how i see it.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Friday, February 10, 2006 8:46 PM

People have responded to the other things to my satisfaction, but the people thinking Reaver's thing is unrealistic still bugs me.

Where is it writ that people have to be stupid to be violent? So no killer has ever been able to do repairs or program a computer?

The idea that just because people are aggressive they will turn on each other. Some of the most violent groups are the most tight nit.

People who kill or rape others for fun have been known to be people intensely devoted to each other.

DC4BS

Friday, February 10, 2006 10:09 PM

I'm interesed that NOONE seems to have twigged to the fact that the Operative didn't fall on his sword.

I mean, according to his own philosophy, "a man who has failed so completey"... "It is a good death."

If he is too weak in the end to do that, why would any of his other convictions be so rock stable either.

I like the outtakes of the final scene with Mal "What a whiner..." After being so much the bad ass heavy, it sums it all up. I think it should have been left in.

His flaws make him even more human and believable and scarier.

------------------------------------------
dc4bs

THESOAPBOXER

Friday, February 10, 2006 11:04 PM

ChrisTheCynic makes good points.

No matter how much we have found out about Reavers, they are still a real mystery. All we (and the characters) really know at this point are their origins and their behaviors. All the rest is strictly speculation, which is where the theory that Reavers shouldn't be able to pilot ships comes from.

Reavers obviously can, in fact, pilot ships since we've seen them do it. While they seem to prefer the traditional metal and stone weapons, they can and do operate slightly more complex weapons (like guns) and how to handle certain poisons or toxins (like the kind Kaylee gets darted with). On top of this, they can also manage to assemble complex explosions linked to booby traps (in "Bushwacked"). They are systematic even when it comes to hunting (they prefer not to eat dead prey).

These are the things that we've seen them do, so if a character ever says that they can't do them, then it would be a contradiction. But since no one has said "Reaver's are too crazy and/or violent to pilot ships or form alligiences with one another" we have no choice but to assume they can.

Since Reavers are fictional characters, not based on any actual society or people, the only one who knows what they can and can't do is Joss. All that we can be sure of is what we've seen them do.

_____________________________________________
Could you please just make it stranger? Just stranger. Odder. Could be weirder. More bizarre. How about uncanny? ~Joss Whedon

SILVERSURFER

Friday, February 10, 2006 11:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dc4bs:
I'm interesed that NOONE seems to have twigged to the fact that the Operative didn't fall on his sword.

I mean, according to his own philosophy, "a man who has failed so completey"... "It is a good death."

If he is too weak in the end to do that, why would any of his other convictions be so rock stable either.

I like the outtakes of the final scene with Mal "What a whiner..." After being so much the bad ass heavy, it sums it all up. I think it should have been left in.

His flaws make him even more human and believable and scarier.

------------------------------------------
dc4bs

Yeah, I totally thought he was gonna fall on his sword at the end and was somewhat disappointed that he didn't. Hirikiri style baby!

ZEEK

Friday, February 10, 2006 11:14 PM

1.) They may have made River better, but at what cost? "Better" is also subjective. She's a superior fighter to the Reavers, but she can't hold a conversation. The point is that the government shouldn't be trying to alter us against our will.

2.) The Operative saw what he was really fighting for. He believes in some evil to accomplish an overall good. When you see murder on that magnitude, you have to have a pretty huge good to outweigh it. I don't think he believes the ends justify the means anymore.

3.) I still maintain my theory that Reavers are just like animals. You can turn on the discovery channel and see a bunch of lions lying around together peaceful as a summer breeze, but when they see their prey, their instincts kick in. We've only seen the reavers in predator instinct mode. I'm betting there is a day to day mode as well.

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