A Christians perspective

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UPDATED: Wednesday, September 10, 2025 23:49
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CARTOON

Monday, January 23, 2006 12:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by freeradical42:
This leaves: The Feast of the Tabernacle and the Feast of the New Year (which is not, as you said, the feast of trumpets). That's two out of four, both of which occur in the spring, and even so, the evidence is that the memorialization of these events was correlated with those feasts and has no basis in when they actually occurred. So it's a nice thought, but sorry, no.

All seven of these feasts are named in the Old Testament, as well as the exact dates on the Jewish Calendar on which they were to be held.

Passover (14th day of the month of Abib)(which falls in March or April of our calendar)
ref - Ex. 12:1-14; Lev. 23:5; Num. 9:1-14; 28:16; Deut. 16:1-7.

*Unleavened Bread (15th through 21st days of the month of Abib)(which falls in March or April or our calendar)
ref - Ex. 12:15-20; 13:3-10; Lev. 23:6-8; Num. 28:17-25; Deut. 16:3,4,8.

Firstfruits (16th day of the month of Abib)(which falls in March or April of our calendar)
ref - Lev. 23:9-14; Num. 28:26.

*Weeks (Harvest or Penecost) (6th day of the month of Sivan)(which falls in May or June of our calendar)
ref - Ex. 23:16; 34:22; Lev. 23:15-21; Num. 28:26-31; Deut. 16:9-12.

Trumpets (Rosh Hashanah) (1st day of Tishri)(which falls in Sept. or Oct. of our calendar)
ref - Lev. 23;23-25; Num. 29:1-6.

Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur)(10th day of Tishri)(which falls in Sept. or Oct. of our calendar)
ref - Lev. 16; 23:26-32; Num. 29:7-11

*Tabernacles (Booths or Ingathering)(15th through 22nd days of the month of Tishri)(which falls in Sept. or Oct. of our calendar)
ref - Ex. 23:16; 34:12; Lev. 23:33-36, 39-43; Num. 29:12-38; Deut. 16:13-15.

* These are the 3 times a year which all male Jews were required to travel to the temple in Jerusalem (Ex. 23:14-19).

Yes, "Firstfruits" and "Unleavened Bread" are part of passover, but they're considered feasts of the Passover. I can refer you to several Jewish sites which will confirm this, not limited to, but including Zola Levitt's webpage (the same Zola Levitt-- who is Jewish -- and who saw the correlation between the feasts and the prophetic events which they typified from which I was referring above.)

Regarding Rosh Hashana not being the feast of trumpets -- Lev. 23:23-24: "Then the LORD spoke to Moses saying, 'Speak to the children of Israel, saying, "In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath, a memorial of trumpets, a holy convocation."'"

Also, Numbers 29:1: "And in the seventh month, on the first of the month, you shall have a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work. For you it is a day of blowing the trumpets."

Don't quite know where you got your information from, but I got mine from the Bible.

FREERADICAL42

Monday, January 23, 2006 3:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
Quote:
Originally posted by freeradical42:
This leaves: The Feast of the Tabernacle and the Feast of the New Year (which is not, as you said, the feast of trumpets). That's two out of four, both of which occur in the spring, and even so, the evidence is that the memorialization of these events was correlated with those feasts and has no basis in when they actually occurred. So it's a nice thought, but sorry, no.

All seven of these feasts are named in the Old Testament, as well as the exact dates on the Jewish Calendar on which they were to be held.

Passover (14th day of the month of Abib)(which falls in March or April of our calendar)
ref - Ex. 12:1-14; Lev. 23:5; Num. 9:1-14; 28:16; Deut. 16:1-7.

*Unleavened Bread (15th through 21st days of the month of Abib)(which falls in March or April or our calendar)
ref - Ex. 12:15-20; 13:3-10; Lev. 23:6-8; Num. 28:17-25; Deut. 16:3,4,8.

Firstfruits (16th day of the month of Abib)(which falls in March or April of our calendar)
ref - Lev. 23:9-14; Num. 28:26.

*Weeks (Harvest or Penecost) (6th day of the month of Sivan)(which falls in May or June of our calendar)
ref - Ex. 23:16; 34:22; Lev. 23:15-21; Num. 28:26-31; Deut. 16:9-12.

Trumpets (Rosh Hashanah) (1st day of Tishri)(which falls in Sept. or Oct. of our calendar)
ref - Lev. 23;23-25; Num. 29:1-6.

Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur)(10th day of Tishri)(which falls in Sept. or Oct. of our calendar)
ref - Lev. 16; 23:26-32; Num. 29:7-11

*Tabernacles (Booths or Ingathering)(15th through 22nd days of the month of Tishri)(which falls in Sept. or Oct. of our calendar)
ref - Ex. 23:16; 34:12; Lev. 23:33-36, 39-43; Num. 29:12-38; Deut. 16:13-15.

* These are the 3 times a year which all male Jews were required to travel to the temple in Jerusalem (Ex. 23:14-19).

Yes, "Firstfruits" and "Unleavened Bread" are part of passover, but they're considered feasts of the Passover. I can refer you to several Jewish sites which will confirm this, not limited to, but including Zola Levitt's webpage (the same Zola Levitt-- who is Jewish -- and who saw the correlation between the feasts and the prophetic events which they typified from which I was referring above.)

Regarding Rosh Hashana not being the feast of trumpets -- Lev. 23:23-24: "Then the LORD spoke to Moses saying, 'Speak to the children of Israel, saying, "In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath, a memorial of trumpets, a holy convocation."'"

Also, Numbers 29:1: "And in the seventh month, on the first of the month, you shall have a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work. For you it is a day of blowing the trumpets."

Don't quite know where you got your information from, but I got mine from the Bible.

As far as I can tell, you are translating "offering" to "feast," which is incorrect. The language there refers to separate sacrifices which are all parts of the Passover holiday religious practice. It is surprising that you were able to recognise that "Trumpets" and the New Year are one and the same, but cannot do this with Passover despite the obvious date overlap.

This is also the case with "trumpets"; these aren't musical trumpets, but rather ram's *horns* to be used in battle (for the best example, see Ewoks in Star Wars). I'm not sure if these are the same trumpets that you want to be associating with; I don't have original greek texts for the gospels around.

But I think most of what you're looking at stems from us reading different translations of the same document. I think you might actually be making an even more uncanny parallel if you were to outwardly refer to individual sacrifices, but then you'd have to find parallels with all of the other offerings that occurred, including the daily offering, the holiday offering, etc, etc, etc. I believe that you are seeing this mistranslation because you listed the Day of Atonement (correlating with Moses returning after atoning for all of Israel) as a feast, when it is w

PRINCESSROHANNEN

Monday, January 23, 2006 6:16 AM

To: Gelassinheit
Re: The Muslim perspective

Why not bring in the perspective anyway?

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to hear as many viewpoints as possible. Any text, including Firefly, can be interpreted from any perspective you like.

CARTOON

Monday, January 23, 2006 2:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by freeradical42:
But I think most of what you're looking at stems from us reading different translations of the same document. I think you might actually be making an even more uncanny parallel if you were to outwardly refer to individual sacrifices, but then you'd have to find parallels with all of the other offerings that occurred, including the daily offering, the holiday offering, etc, etc, etc. I believe that you are seeing this mistranslation because you listed the Day of Atonement (correlating with Moses returning after atoning for all of Israel) as a feast, when it is well known that not eating is one of the afflictions kept for that day. Sacrifice != feast.

Hi. Firstly, while I do believe the correlation between the feasts and prophesies, sadly I am not the author of said theory (I confess I'm not smart enough to have discerned such a correlation). It's now widely known, but I first heard it mentioned by Zola Levitt. The best I could find online at his site to which I can refer you is:
http://store.levitt.com/cgi-bin/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=enter&thispage=det
-seven_feasts.html&ORDER_ID=!ORDERID!

Regarding calling them "feasts" -- the Jewish High Holy Days are often refered to as "feasts" or "festivals".

I've also searched "Chosen People Ministries", but unfortunately, could not find a direct link where they mention the "seven" feasts or High Holy Days of Israel. However, they frequently discuss the subject, and I'm sure it can be found through a more detailed search of their webpage somewhere (Sadly, I have dial-up, and it would take me decades to peruse their entire website.)

JHANCE11

Monday, January 23, 2006 5:41 PM

As I said earlier, The Ark would have been the as long as 4 football field and 3 stories high.Using wood only would not have worked due to the size and stress. It would have sprung hundreds of leaks. This is fact not fiction. The only answer if such A boat had been built would be God's hand in it to keep it afloat. Also I'd be very interested in knowing where you came up with the 100 years for the completion of the boat.

jhance11

JHANCE11

Monday, January 23, 2006 5:48 PM

I could not agree more, The airwaves are full of writers who do it for A larger audience or just for the money (take A look at Tom Clancy's work)In this time of Civil liberties under assault from the right and reality show's dominating the screens of america, one can only hope we come to our senses soon Thank you for responding.

jhance11

FREERADICAL42

Monday, January 23, 2006 7:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
Quote:
Originally posted by freeradical42:
But I think most of what you're looking at stems from us reading different translations of the same document. I think you might actually be making an even more uncanny parallel if you were to outwardly refer to individual sacrifices, but then you'd have to find parallels with all of the other offerings that occurred, including the daily offering, the holiday offering, etc, etc, etc. I believe that you are seeing this mistranslation because you listed the Day of Atonement (correlating with Moses returning after atoning for all of Israel) as a feast, when it is well known that not eating is one of the afflictions kept for that day. Sacrifice != feast.

Hi. Firstly, while I do believe the correlation between the feasts and prophesies, sadly I am not the author of said theory (I confess I'm not smart enough to have discerned such a correlation). It's now widely known, but I first heard it mentioned by Zola Levitt. The best I could find online at his site to which I can refer you is:
http://store.levitt.com/cgi-bin/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=enter&thispage=det
-seven_feasts.html&ORDER_ID=!ORDERID!

Regarding calling them "feasts" -- the Jewish High Holy Days are often refered to as "feasts" or "festivals".

I've also searched "Chosen People Ministries", but unfortunately, could not find a direct link where they mention the "seven" feasts or High Holy Days of Israel. However, they frequently discuss the subject, and I'm sure it can be found through a more detailed search of their webpage somewhere (Sadly, I have dial-up, and it would take me decades to peruse their entire website.)

If you're saying that feast = holiday, then Passover is the Feast of First Fruits, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and the Passover Feast. The verses you cited are referring not to individual holidays, but individual religious components of the same holiday.

The connection here seems rather tenuous and constructed to me, still.

"See, morbid and creepifying, I got no problem with, long as she does it quiet-like."

CHRISTHECYNIC

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 2:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jhance11:
As I said earlier, The Ark would have been the as long as 4 football field and 3 stories high.Using wood only would not have worked due to the size and stress. It would have sprung hundreds of leaks.

Actually that isn't true, the wood not being sufficient bit I mean. Someone once said it and the idea took off, sort of like the myth that the great wall of China was visible from space.

Wood would have been able to do it, on the other hand the question of getting that much wood and assembling it without screwing it up is something else entirely.

There is also a question of whether or not the technology required to make the wood do the job really existed, carpentry has improved over the years after all and just because something could be done with the tools of the day doesn't mean it could be done with the knowledge and understanding of the day.

-

The real question isn't the building material, wood would work, it is the building itself. How do you make a boat that big?

Then there is the animals bit, even if you use the less cited account, meaning you don't need to cram in two of every single animal, how do the animals not on the ark survive?

Some would say it's a question of biblical mathematics
(Once upon a time there were two people, and they had two sons, one of the sons killed the other son so there were only three people in existence. The surviving son went to the village next door.)
And as the Old Testament is an account of the Jews the other animals were on the other arks built by other people in other parts of the world.

The people who would say this maintain that god is nondenominational and thus multiple religions are right, they believe that until it gets to the New Testament (and some say even then) the bible is an account only of the Jews and thus there were other "Edens" (other creations of other races) other arks (the other flood stories) and other such things.

These people are not well liked.

KIZYR

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 6:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Gelassenheit:
Too bad there is no Muslim aspects in Firefly, otherwise I coulda talked about the Muslim perspective.

Ok, this is my signal to chime in {^^}.

This thread's way too long for me to read it all, so I'm gonna get back to some of the original intentions of it...

I find the religious representation in the Firefly 'verse to be nearly accurate. I say nearly only because of what I see as Whedon's natural limitations regarding what he can show--he can't show the entire 'verse, just what it is from his characters' perspective.

That being said, I figure the main religious trends in the Firefly 'verse are going to be Islam, Christianity, and Buddhism--Buddhism mainly because of Sihnon's current influence. Atheism / Agnosticism would likewise be very common, particularly considering how many Europeans now consider themselves one or the other. Other religions--Judaism, Hinduism, and Sikhism, e.g.--I'd see as being present, but in large numbers only in certain geographical (cosmographical?) areas. There were small references you could catch--the woman in a burqa riding the train, the Moroccan guy who was in the bank in the movie, the Jewish operator of the Allied Postal Service branch, etc. Leads me to think that other religious aspects weren't ignored, so much as being impossible to really cover in great detail.

Anywho, being Muslim myself, I still really identify with Shepherd Book. The religious difference is minor; I just sympathized with his trying to reconcile his faith with what appears to be both right and wrong at the same time. He was a lot more realistic as an 'active' religious figure, not just some guy sitting behind a pulpit. Oh, yeah, and I loved the Haven prayer so much from the movie that I had to keep it as a signature {^^}.

Strangely enough, he reminds me quite a bit of the Muslim character from Pitch Black (imam Al-Walid, played by Keith David). The movie was ok, but the character there was incredible--to date, it's the only real accurate and positive depiction of a Muslim character on the big screen.

I'm actually working out religious contingents and religious geography a little bit with creating the setting for a Serenity RPG. So I've thought on this a lot lately. KF

~KF

"Lord, I'm walking your way. Let me in, for my feet are sore, my clothes are ragged. Look in my eyes, Lord, and my sins will play out on them as on a screen. Read them all. Forgive what you can and send me on my path. I will walk on until you bid me rest." ~Haven Prayer

JHANCE11

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 5:18 PM

As I said earlier Wood is fine for building almost any ship until you get to A certain size and weight itls not that it would not float but the internal stress would make leaks springup all around the ship This was found to be true using computer aided design at Cal-tech
There are other elements of your comments that make sense and I find my self in agreement with

jhance11

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