Mal and his people are just low-life thieves...
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 14:32
VIEWED: 39973
PAGE 11 of 17
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Originally posted by CaptBryan:
I have been in the place of steal or starve.
The thing is, though, that Mal isn't in that place.
He could do honest work. He could haul legitimate cargo.
He chooses not to. (Even before the added strain of River's presence on the ship.)
That's an entirely different issue than people who steal because their alternative is starving.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Queenofthenorth:
Okay, Citizen, I've just re-read my post and realized I sounded like a complete bitch who was personally attacking you. That wasn't what I was trying to do at all. To be honest, I love arguing and I'm having a right blast having it out with intelligent folk like you and Agentrouka. However, I tend to get a little passionate and black and white in my arguments. So anyways, sorry if I offended you in any way, my humblest of apologies.
You didn't, though my reply may have come across in a way that indicated you had done, but that's largely for the same reasons you cite
.So sorry for that.
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Now, to qualify my arguments and make them grayer and more supportable. Instead of referring to the Alliance as evil, I'm gonna call their system corrupt and say that they do do bad things. I think we can all agree on that, yes? Just because they do sometimes do good things doesn't mean they shouldn't be brought down.
I agree, I believe they aren't evil, and certainly not as bad as Mal paints. We only ever see the bad side of the Alliance because we see them through the eyes of people who were always in conflict with the Alliance. Are they even bad enough to be brought down? I don't know, I've not seen them do anything worse than any nation on Earth. Not saying they're not, more the implication that maybe all nations are, if that makes any sense.
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Not your homeland, not mine, not anybody's.
Sorry, I thought I'd read somewhere you were American, I was mistaken, I appologise.
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For the record, let me state here that I think MAL WAS WRONG for killing that soldier.
Then I agree. I just wanted to point out that like life Firefly ain't black and White. The crew aren't the goodies fighting the good fight against the baddies, FireFly Ain't He-Man and the masters of the Universe and it ain't StarWars.
Basically I see a lot of talk like "he had it coming" and that gives me pause. It's the polarisation that I see coming out of America at the moment from a lot of people, the "we're good and they're bad so no matter what we do to them is right and justified no matter how bad" argument. Personally I think Joss had him kill the soldier because it was the wrong thing to do. Good people like Ralph from Lord of the Flies, can do bad things sometimes.
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Let me use Wash's words to address that: "Right, cuz I wouldn't get in trouble if we got caught. I could always say I was flying the ship by accident." I figure, any way you look at it, the people of Haven couldn't have been slaughtered without that guy's help. Which makes him guilty in some small way.
If an attack helicopter is shot down after attacking a village in Iraq, one that the crew believed was a terroist camp, does the pilot deserve to be summerially executed? Not asking what would happen, just whether the pilot would deserve it. I think you've made your feelings cleared, so that questions to everyone who thinks "he had it comming".
The argument could be made that everyone who pays taxes is culpable, without that money the Alliance couldn't build the ships.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:Quote:
Originally posted by CaptBryan:
I have been in the place of steal or starve.
The thing is, though, that Mal isn't in that place.
He could do honest work. He could haul legitimate cargo.
He chooses not to. (Even before the added strain of River's presence on the ship.)
That's an entirely different issue than people who steal because their alternative is starving.
To be fair, how do you know he steals before River gets on the ship? Other than the time in the Serenity pilot, I mean. We didn't see anything of what Mal did in the 7 (I think) years between the war and River's arrival. Maybe that was the first time he had to steal, because they were going hungry. And I think that was more salvage than steal anyway. After that, River's presence on the ship makes regular Alliance jobs virtually impossible. Unless he wants to turn River in, which he doesn't.
I know, I know, I'm splitting hairs here. I can't help it. It's a compulsion.
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"Of course I'm right. And if I'm not, may we all be horribly crushed from above somehow."
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
[You didn't, though my reply may have come across in a way that indicated you had done, but that's largely for the same reasons you cite
So sorry for that. ]
Yay, we're all getting along now.
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Originally posted by citizen:
Sorry, I thought I'd read somewhere you were American, I was mistaken, I appologise. ]
Please, don't insult me like that. I'm Canadian.
Let me clarify I was just kidding about the insult, in case an American browncoat mob wants to lynch me now. No worries, it's all good.Anyways, I think if you tally up all the right/wrong stuff Mal's done, he comes out more of a paler gray than dark gray. Though shooting that guy certainly didn't help. Oh, and two more things just for argument's sake: that guy could have been the gunner too, the one that actually fired, thus making him the most guilty one on board. As you said, we don't know for sure. Also, it looked to me like he was pretty badly injured, so he might have died even with treatment from Simon, and suffered a good deal beforehand. Sooooo, maybe Mal did him "a piece of mercy". What do ya think?
"I'm having one of those things - a headache with pictures."
"Of course I'm right. And if I'm not, may we all be horribly crushed from above somehow."
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Originally posted Jubel:
mal doesn't live in america or any other democratic nation. he didn't ask to be in the alliance. him and zoe fought againt the alliance takeover of their world.
America has forced puppet governments on plenty of people. General Pinochet was installed by the American government in place of a valid elected for the people democracy. Unfortunatly the people chose a government that the White House didn't want, sorry guys here's a dictator.
Also all the evidence points to the Alliance being a democracy.
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what goes on in the 'verse cannot be compared in any way to our culture. closest you come to that is the american indians. what kind of police state does the alliance run?
Of course it can. There's no evidence of any 'police state' in operation on Alliance worlds not unless you call America and Britian police states, and some indication the other way.
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except for what is done with river.
Do you really think that America or any other nation wouldn't do the exact same thing if we had the technology?
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A Hero would never kill inocent people, but he will kill the bad guys. Personally, I feel any human who would let a man who killed all those peeps walk is not a man. Its a terrible crime, and I think its sick that anyone does not think doing it deserves the death penalty. How could they tell they were inocent? Because they had Grammit kids. Because they were obviously a mine center, not a army. If they had attacked fighters it would be one thing, they didn't. They attacked people who had almost no defence. Anyone on that ship coulda seen that what they were doing was wrong, and that makes them bad. Its touph, they weren't hero's. Hero's woulda taken that order and told the alliance to shove it.
So what do I think Hero's are? People who do whats right, weathr it mean having that persons head cut off, or being sent to jail.
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Though I would argue that Mal isn't broken. Deeply hurt, yes. But not broken:)
you know, i think i'm going to have to amend my original statement, and agree with you that mal isn't broken. he seems like he has no hope, no faith, but i don't think that's exactly the case. i don't think he's as far down as he would like everyone to think he is, because to be in that place, he wouldn't give a s**t if he was still flyin'.
and i'd love to sign up and follow him into the black. he's the kind of leader-type you end up doing incredibly stupid, suicidal things for, you know?
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Originally posted by queenofthenorth:Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:Quote:
Originally posted by CaptBryan:
I have been in the place of steal or starve.
The thing is, though, that Mal isn't in that place.
He could do honest work. He could haul legitimate cargo.
He chooses not to. (Even before the added strain of River's presence on the ship.)
That's an entirely different issue than people who steal because their alternative is starving.
To be fair, how do you know he steals before River gets on the ship? Other than the time in the Serenity pilot, I mean. We didn't see anything of what Mal did in the 7 (I think) years between the war and River's arrival. Maybe that was the first time he had to steal, because they were going hungry. And I think that was more salvage than steal anyway. After that, River's presence on the ship makes regular Alliance jobs virtually impossible. Unless he wants to turn River in, which he doesn't.
I know, I know, I'm splitting hairs here. I can't help it. It's a compulsion.
Splitting hairs can be fun.
But I think it can be assumed without much risk of being wrong, that Mal had the crime thing going a while. Wash says in the pilot, "We're crooks, sweety, if everything was right we'd be in jail."
The implication of some experience (the crybaby distraction device!) in illegal activity is pretty heavy.
And he could try for work that's not Alliance. They're all over the place, yes, but they can't be everywhere or everyone would be Alliance, even on the rim.
Mal likes being a petty crook, even if it stings when Inara calls him that.
It's his way of lashing out at the 'verse.
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I wouldn't strictly say that he likes it (BDM when he looks all sad about what he does) but I think it's the only way he can live and still respect himself. By that I mean he's still trying to "get" the Alliance and isn't submitting to their rule. Not that he respects himself for stealing cuz I don't think he does.
I see Mal as more a Robin Hood type thief than just your average "steal to make a buck" thief. He doesn't steal from people that really need their stuff, or if he does, he makes it right again (Train Job). This doesn't mean he's right, just less wrong. Besides, everybody likes Robin Hood, right? I mean, Mal even wears tight pants.
"I'm having one of those things - a headache with pictures."
"Of course I'm right. And if I'm not, may we all be horribly crushed from above somehow."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bowie:
A Hero would never kill inocent people, but he will kill the bad guys. Personally, I feel any human who would let a man who killed all those peeps walk is not a man. Its a terrible crime, and I think its sick that anyone does not think doing it deserves the death penalty.
Right so your calling for the death penalty for American and British service personnel in Iraq right? Or are the children and civilians dying out there, being burnt alive with white phosphorus 'baddies' so it's okay to kill them?
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How could they tell they were inocent? Because they had Grammit kids.
I'm sure the fact that they had kids was right on the front page of the briefing notes.
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Because they were obviously a mine center, not a army. If they had attacked fighters it would be one thing, they didn't. They attacked people who had almost no defence.
And as we all know terrorists tend to sit about in big Terrorist bases with big neon signs that say "yes we are terrorists" and they never use, or disguise their base of operations as, civilian instillations.
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Anyone on that ship coulda seen that what they were doing was wrong, and that makes them bad. Its touph, they weren't hero's.
You know that do you? You're either very naive or ignorant of how these things work.
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People who do whats right, weathr it mean having that persons head cut off
Are you a follower of Al Zarqawi? He has the same Black and White "I'm good you're evil" moral Relativism as you seem to show.
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