Mal and his people are just low-life thieves...
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 14:32
VIEWED: 39973
PAGE 7 of 17
Hehe... A thought.
You know, I'm sure if Joss gets around to stumbling across this thread he's gonna have a smile spread from ear to ear.
His characters being discussed in such depth. It's prety telling about the quality of the work that so many people have so much to bring to the table in such a discussion. And from so many different viewpoints as well.
Different people can look at the same art and may perceive very different things. Different people look at crap and prety much will all see the same crap.
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
------------------------------------------
dc4bs
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I know I'm diggin' it. Man I love this show!
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
So I guess the question is: Is there a distinction between what's justifiable and what's right? Vengeance in this case is certainly justice, but couldn't it be argued that showing mercy to this murderer would be a more morally sound choice?
Re-reading my own post, I see I forgot to specify something. Specifically, Mal did not kill that pilot out of vengeance. If vengeance were his goal, he would have killed the Operative after their climactic fight. Which would have gotten him and his killed very, very dead.
But don't think he let the Operative live as an act of mercy. He'd gotten the man's measure by then. Forcing him to face the truth of what he'd spent his life serving was the worst punishment he could have given him.
But not vengeance. Justice.
"Vengeance is counterproductive. Not to mention the fact that it gets your soul all sticky." -- Lady Sally Magee
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I've heard from some right on this board that Mal is someone you wouldn't want to know in real life, that he's cold and hard, and that no matter how entertaining Serenity/Firefly is, we're basically rooting for crooks.
I don't hold with that.
I think they're Big Damn Heroes, as much as their existence allows them to be.
Like the best in us sometimes has to be.
Chrisisall, pattin' us Browncoats on the back a little
I don't hold with that either. In the world they inhabit, Mal and crew are not the bad guys. And while there were a couple of things that Mal did in the BDM that I didn't like, that were cold and hard, for the most part I totally disagree that he's someone you wouldn't want to know in real life.
I would be more than honored to know Mal in real life. If y'all want to point me to someone who is more loyal and resilient and caring in the face of all that he's been through, go ahead. I know people in the real world who are far more cold and hard, and they justify it on the basis of the fact that they have been through some tough times, but nothing even close to Mal.
Show me anyone else, fictional or real, who can lose his war, his home, his family, his planet, and be shot, stabbed, betrayed, and tortured and come through it all with a kinder and more loyal heart than Mal.
Maybe by today's standards of society, they're "badguys." But in the world they inhabit, they are a pretty darn shiny crew, and I'm not the least bit ashamed of rooting for them.
As far as the "is Mal heroic" debate goes, of course he is. He's a normal human, he's not flying around looking for ways to save the world. But tell me sheltering Simon and River when they can bring down on him what he fears teh most isn't heroic. Returning the medicine, risking arrest and knowing he will piss off a very dangerous man is heroic. Helping the prostitutes make their stand was heroic. Helping Wash survive torture while he himself was going through the exact same thing was heroic. Staying on his crippled ship and sending his crew off to their best chance of survival was heroic. Defending Inara's honor was heroic.
_________________________________________________
"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.
"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"
www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Shooting someone who surrenders: In my book that is always wrong. Always.
Threatening the crew, can be argued, was likely not quite genuine and more of a way to harden both himself and them to the situation.
Shooting that Alliance guy? Wrong. Callous, selfish, immoral, testament of how far OVER the line this savagery pushed Mal.
My personal opinion, anyway.
I also have to agree.....I see how people justify it, but I will never be okay with Mal shooting a surrendering soldier, or threatening to shoot down his crew. Lines were crossed there that just don't sit right with me:(
___________________________________________________
"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.
"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"
www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
I've heard from some right on this board that Mal is someone you wouldn't want to know in real life, that he's cold and hard...
oh, i don't hold to that either. mal is hardly cold, he's broken. i hardly see the Alliance as "good" so i can't really even call the crew "crooks" in good conscience.
and if i knew someone like mal, i'd probably follow him into the black too.
http://violetrix.blogspot.com
soon there'll be no room for naughty men like us to slip about at all
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by violetrix:Quote:
I've heard from some right on this board that Mal is someone you wouldn't want to know in real life, that he's cold and hard...
oh, i don't hold to that either. mal is hardly cold, he's broken. i hardly see the Alliance as "good" so i can't really even call the crew "crooks" in good conscience.
and if i knew someone like mal, i'd probably follow him into the black too.
Where do I sign up:) I would follow him anywhere.
Though I would argue that Mal isn't broken. Deeply hurt, yes. But not broken:)
________________________________________________
"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.
"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"
www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Bowie:
Hero's are not always fancy knights on chargers, set to make all ends good.
In fact everyone I've seen with a Dodge Charger has been a bad guy: Vin Diesl(the fast and the furious), Peter Fonda (Dirty Mary, Crazy Larry), and the assasins in Bullit.
Oh, you meant horses. Sorry, when I hear charger, Dodge just pops into my (gear)head.
---------------------------------------------
The real-life box droppin', man-ape gone wrong thing, now without the pesky falling boxes
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
Okay, here's how I see it:
1: In response to the person who suggested that Mal would be more heroic if he worked within the system: First, that logic only obtains if there is a real fighting chance of such change happening--and we don't know enough about the Alliance to judge if this is reasonable, or even possible-- but Mal is under no moral obligation to attempt it!
Nor did I say he was.
All I am saying is that living a pirate life on the fringe is not a heroic thing.
Working within the system to try and change it would be a heroic thing. The more difficult, the more unlikely the chance of success, the more heroic, actually. That's where the whole selflessness and sacrifice deal comes in.
Nowhere am I saying that Mal is obligated to do so. Or that it's the only heroic thing he could possibly do. Or that choosing not to do so is morally wrong.
Being a hero is something extraordinary that has nothing to do with just getting by or refraining from crossing certain lines.
I don't understand what is supposed to be so insulting about the statement that Mal's ordinary smuggler-thief-scavenger life is not heroic, per se.
Quote:
2. The killing of the Alliance pilot on Haven was fully justified. That pilot had just murdered an entire settlement of Alliance citizens in peacetime! Yes, it could be argued that he was just following orders. The first time that defense was tested was at Nuremberg; it didn't go well for the defendents. A subsequent attempt to use the same argument involved a small Vietnamese town call My Lai. You may have read about it.
Oh come on. At least read what I really said before bringing on the emotionally charged Nazi references.
The pilotS (more than one in that craft, most like) were with all probability not told "Go kill these innocent citizens! Unless you don't want to, then go have coffee and a bagel."
Alliance soldiers are humans, too, and the most probable way of making them cooperate is to lie to them or give them the most motivating tidbits of information.
It's not inconceivable that they were told that the people on Haven were a terrorist cell. Operations to preventatively murder terrorists in their own dens, without a declaration of war, that's something happening in this world right now, too. Ordered by more or less respectable governments. (Is it right? Another question.)
To the soldiers/agents/whoever carrying out those attacks, they are doing a patriotic duty, based on the information they are given, to protect the greater good. The people they are attacking are identified to them as guilty and dangerous.
It's not all black and white, but shades of grey.
Quote:
And yes, Mal had no right under that law to act as judge, jury and executioner, but since the Parlament, through its Operative, obviously considers itself above the law, what other options did he have? Letting a mass murderer survive? Taking him prisoner, thereby imposing yet another danger on himself and his crew?
Why is it so hard to imagine that these were ignorant grunts? Did Haven have a big sign posted, saying "Innocent Civilians! You're superiors, who you have no reason to distrust based on your own previous experience, obviously lied to you!"
It's not like the Operative went out and said "Who wants to mass murder today, raise your hand!"
It's at least possible (and not so very unlikely) that they did not know they were attacking complete innocents, and that has to be considered. There is a reason Prisoners of war are NOT to be just randomly executed. They are pawns in a bigger game and the extend of their knowledge is probably not all-encompassing.
Killing that man was either hot-headed revenge or coldly calculated convenience. Justice, it was not.
Doing the right thing isn't measured by what others are doing wrong. It's not a relative thing. Relative is what motivates us to NOT do they right thing and how understandable those mo
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
To those of you who think Mal shooting an Alliance soldier who's throwing up his arms in surrender is just plain wrong, you really really really need to rewatch the series with particular attention to what the Alliance military says and does. You really really really need to get a grip on what the Alliance and Blue Sun are.
Listen to what the commanding officer says in Train Job. Critical medicine has been stolen. The officer says to mark it as delivered. Orders the attachment of soldiers on. Sends no help to the townsfolk to retrieve the meds. They're on their own.
Watch Safe again and realize that the Alliance officer would have refused medical assistance to Book, thus condemning him to death, had Book not had an ident card that the officer deemed worthy.
The Alliance is an unholy entity. Blue Sun is a corporation that owns just about every damn thing, and is, in most respects, the government. You're looking at a facist government/corporate monopoly that is only interested in its own survival and amassing more power and wealth.
Mal has lived his whole life suffering the indignities, horrors, and injustices of a brutal, oppressive regime. He fought for independence from it and was betrayed by his own commanders in the end, left to watch damn near everyone under his command die AFTER a cease fire, waiting for the med ships that didn't come until the Alliance and the Browncoats worked out a surrender.
Mal has no alligance, nor should he, to the Alliance code of justice. The Alliance code of justice is warped, slanted towards the "haves" and the "have-mores". It seeks to empower the rich and disenfranchise the poor. Why the hell do you think they were trying to rebell? Because they didn't want to pay their taxes? NO! Because the Alliance is evil and indifferent by turns to the beleaugered people on the outer rim planets and these folks had had about enough of being abandoned when they needed help, and being interefered with in the most high handed way imaginable when it suited the Alliance.
He tried to win his independence from the Alliance and lost. So he simply declared his own personal independence and tries to stay as far away from the Alliance as possible. Unfortunately, circumstances keep drawing him and the Alliance face to face.
You cannot judge Mal's actions by your own standards that were forged by living in a prosperous country governed by the rule of law, with democratically elected officals, states rights, and advocacy groups for the disenfranshised. You live in a paradise that Mal couldn't even concieve.
Honestly, seriously, rewatch the episodes and pay attention to what the Alliance is.
That being said, there's another layer.
Inara: I just want to know who I'm dealing with. I've seen too many versions of you to be sure.
Mal: I start fighting a war, I guarantee you'll see something new.
Mal is no longer a civilian when he lands on Haven and sees what the Operative has set in motion. He's now at war.
If on the beaches of Normandy in the heat of battle, a German solider stumbled out of a bunker with arms raised, after having spent the last three hours shredding the Allied soldiers to bits, do you honestly think any of the Allied soldiers would have stopped, accepted his surrender, and marched him off to a prisoner of war camp? Every last man on that beach would have picked him off--shot, stabbed, or stomped him to death. Because it's war. And unlike our "civilized" wars, in the future Mal lives in, there are no humane Rules of Engagement. Honest to Pete, the Allied solider was, to Mal, an enemy combatant. Maybe not by our rules, maybe not by your priviledged standards, but he was an enemy combatant to a man who's had to live with a regime that's heaped upon him and his nothing but sorrow and pain his whole life. To a man who's fought against this sort of hideous behavior in one war already and finds himself in another war with an Operative of the Alliance and the men at his command, it's a no brainer to shoot anything that moves on a b
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME