General Discussions

Mal and his people are just low-life thieves...

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 14:32
VIEWED: 39973
PAGE 10 of 17

SINGATE

Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:42 PM

The only reason this soldier has his hands up is because he was unarmed. If there had been a gun handy I doubt he would have had any problem with shooting all of them in the back.

Besides if someone killed a bunch of your friends/family and you later ran into that person while he was unarmed or helpless how would you react?

CITIZEN

Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Queenofthenorth:
Okay, I have a few problems with the "for we all we know he could have been the galley cook" theory. For one thing, that ship looked like the equivalent of a fighter jet to me, which means it's not likely someone's home when they're flying around space, and probably doesn't even have a galley on it. Also, I'm pretty sure your average galley cook wouldn't be wearing armor.

The ship looks like it was at least the size of Serenity, which is large enough to have a galley. The guy Mal shot wasn't wearing body armour. You don't know what he did, I don't know what he did, and Mal didn't know what he did. He shot him for wearing an Alliance uniform.

Quote:
Do you honestly think that anybody could have believed that entire settlement was made up of completely evil terrorist people, and that there wasn't an innocent person or child among them? I'm not saying that what Mal did was necessarily right. But the Alliance soldier was most certainly not an innocent man.

So all those attack jet/helicopter pilots that flew sorties against al qaeda training camps, and indeed sorties against Baghdad deserve to be shot because they aren't innocent?
And if he believed it to be a terrorist camp there’s no reason to believe that there would be women and children.
You're assuming that since he was part of the crew that did the dirty work he knew all the details, which frankly he certainly did not. As with all militaries the Alliance will run on need to know, and he wouldn't need to know.

Quote:
The same Alliance who took an innocent girl, stripped her of her ability to handle her own emotions, and turned her into an insane living weapon? The same Alliance who said, screw the dying people of Paradiso, we've got better things to do? The same Alliance who used biological weapons to murder entire settlements during the war, then stole their valuables?

Are you living in an evil empire beyond salvation? Is it okay to kill a cop in the street in New York, is it okay for America’s enemies to kill surrendering soldiers rather than take them as prisoners and try them in a court?
Everything you listed has a comparable event from America, yet I see 'the land of the free', 'proud to be an American' and other statements a lot. So is America evil?
To River I say CIA and military testing of drugs and weapons on unwilling participants during the fifties and allegedly the first gulf war.
To Paradiso I say Katrina.
To Biological weapons I say the wholesale illegal use of white phosphorus in civilian areas of Fallujah (it is illegal to use white phosphorus even against military personnel under the Chemical Weapons Convention). Besides, the Alliance using biological weapons was actually flaunted as an illegal and uncaught act by one man. Further more it was possibly a lie Yo-Saf-Bridge told to get Mal 'on side'.
The point is every nation on Earth can pull a parallel with those acts and their own, but that doesn’t necessarily make them evil.

Quote:
The same Alliance who believed Mal guilty of killing an entire shipful of innocent people because he was a Browncoat, with no actual proof?

What, like the fact there was a guy in their infirmary who looked like he'd been tortured, a ship full of dead people and another shipload of people who were just leaving?
Okay put yourself into a similar situation, you're a captain of a navy Cruiser, and you've just come across a couple of ships in the middle of the Atlantic. One ship was full of unarmed fishermen, who are all dead, and the other ship is full of armed mercenaries and confirmed ex-soldiers, who not only have the other ships cargo, but the sole survivor tied up in their hold. What do you do? Say "Oh I'm sure they were just on a rescue mission" and let them go? Please.
Frankly given a comparable time (i.e. the 1800's) they would have been blown out of the water for piracy.

Quote:
The same Alliance who don't protect their citizens from Reavers, because they can't acknowledge the fact that they

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PRINCESSROHANNEN

Thursday, January 19, 2006 7:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
To quote Shakespeare:

There is nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

or

I must be cruel to be kind, thus bad begins and worse remains behind.

If you take these on board all actions have a measure of good and bad too them. Many of Mals and the crews actions appear on the surface as bad, or villainous, but beyond that, he is fending for himself and his crew and for their immediate need for survival.

Personally it's a question of survival - that's key to many of there actions...and all species do just about anything to survive, when it comes to it. Good or bad.

If you want to argue about the morals of their actions, well then you have to establish which values we all share and adhere to, and which stand to be respected and which actions may (if at all) be ignored.

But these human frailties are what makes these characters interesting and the dilema they (us) are placed under is what constantly keeps us watching.

www.cirqus.com

Gotta agree with you on several points here.

Frankly, ain't no way we here on this board are going to establish what's eternally right and what's eternally wrong. Better philosophers and holy men and women than any of us have been carrying on this debate since the dawn of human language, and they're no nearer an answer than they were when the debate began.

The biggest point I think I'm going to take away from this discussion is that the moral ambiguity of Mal and the crew are what keep this show so interesting. There's no hard and fast moral to the story. Each one of these characters is flawed enough to make him or her human.

Just the same way that each one of us is human and therefore flawed.

That's why we connect to them so strongly.

And Chrisisall: I would never torture a dog no matter what it did. Even if a dog killed someone, I'd want to conduct an investigation to make sure that someone wasn't asking for it before putting the dog to sleep. But that guy in the ship had it comin'. And you can't prove that my outlandinsh speculations wouldn't have come to pass.

CYBERSNARK

Thursday, January 19, 2006 7:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ReaverInA1985Riviera:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bowie:
Hero's are not always fancy knights on chargers, set to make all ends good.

In fact everyone I've seen with a Dodge Charger has been a bad guy: Vin Diesl(the fast and the furious), Peter Fonda (Dirty Mary, Crazy Larry), and the assasins in Bullit.

Dukes of Hazzard?

(Which, ironically enough, tosses us back into the moral relativity debate.

)

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

BROWNCOAT1

Thursday, January 19, 2006 8:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
...I've heard it said by some.

I feel Mal and co. are survivors; they don't steal from regular folk, or endanger lives. They nibble off the edge of the Alliance to live. They definitly ain't getting rich stealin' and such. Plenty ways to get wealthy in the 'Verse if you got no morals...

Thoughts?

I agree that Mal is a survivor, and so by necessity are the rest of the crew. Sure they steal, but as we have seen in the series & in the movie, Mal will do all he can not to take from or hurt the ordinary folk.

Now Mal loves a job if it means he gets to thumb his nose at the Alliance, or as Badger might say "flash his ass at the gorram law", but that does not mean that Mal is reckless. He is capable of planning & cunning when it is required. Look at the double cross he pulled on YoSafBridg in "Trash". Snubbing the Alliance is a bonus that Mal will pull for free. It is a perk for him.

Mal & crew are not getting rich as you mentioned, but that is due to them having some lines they will not cross. Mal is a man w/ a code & ethics. There are things he will not due, even if it means that things are lean for him & the crew. He could very likely make great money running guns or slaves, but he won't cross that line. He might even be able to pull in some cash running legitimate runs to or from the Alliance, but he refuses to do anything to help the purplebellies.

We wonder sometimes if Mal is happy w/ his choices. When he asks River in the BDM "Do your understand your part in all of this?" & she looks at him & asks "Do you?" Mal answers "This is what I do darlin'." then more quietly & to himself "It's what I do." I am sure everyone saw the look on Mal's face, a mix of pain, resignation, perhaps even fatigue. Is he really happy? He looks like a man with a great many burdens to bear. As he tells Simon jobs are harder to come by, even legit ones, since Simon & River are onboard Serenity.

Now, it could be that the situation might change to an extent given the way events end in the BDM. With River no longer a "threat" in the Operative's report to Parliment, it could be that the Alliance calls off the hounds. The damage is done, the dirty little secret of Miranda is out. It could be that if the hounds are called off Mal & crew can get work more readily & perhaps breath easier.

I have no doubt that the spin doctors of the Parliment powers are hard at work, but are they done w/ River & Mal? Will someone be looking for payback due to the fallout of the broadcast going out? Are there other secrets locked away somewhere in River's mind that have not surfaced yet? Who can tell, but if not & the Alliance does leave the crew alone it could mean greener pastures for our BDHs.

Only time, & Joss, will tell.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

JOELIST

Thursday, January 19, 2006 9:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
...I've heard it said by some.

I feel Mal and co. are survivors; they don't steal from regular folk, or endanger lives. They nibble off the edge of the Alliance to live. They definitly ain't getting rich stealin' and such. Plenty ways to get wealthy in the 'Verse if you got no morals...

Thoughts?

I agree that Mal is a survivor, and so by necessity are the rest of the crew. Sure they steal, but as we have seen in the series & in the movie, Mal will do all he can not to take from or hurt the ordinary folk.

Now Mal loves a job if it means he gets to thumb his nose at the Alliance, or as Badger might say "flash his ass at the gorram law", but that does not mean that Mal is reckless. He is capable of planning & cunning when it is required. Look at the double cross he pulled on YoSafBridg in "Trash". Snubbing the Alliance is a bonus that Mal will pull for free. It is a perk for him.

Mal & crew are not getting rich as you mentioned, but that is due to them having some lines they will not cross. Mal is a man w/ a code & ethics. There are things he will not due, even if it means that things are lean for him & the crew. He could very likely make great money running guns or slaves, but he won't cross that line. He might even be able to pull in some cash running legitimate runs to or from the Alliance, but he refuses to do anything to help the purplebellies.

We wonder sometimes if Mal is happy w/ his choices. When he asks River in the BDM "Do your understand your part in all of this?" & she looks at him & asks "Do you?" Mal answers "This is what I do darlin'." then more quietly & to himself "It's what I do." I am sure everyone saw the look on Mal's face, a mix of pain, resignation, perhaps even fatigue. Is he really happy? He looks like a man with a great many burdens to bear. As he tells Simon jobs are harder to come by, even legit ones, since Simon & River are onboard Serenity.

Now, it could be that the situation might change to an extent given the way events end in the BDM. With River no longer a "threat" in the Operative's report to Parliment, it could be that the Alliance calls off the hounds. The damage is done, the dirty little secret of Miranda is out. It could be that if the hounds are called off Mal & crew can get work more readily & perhaps breath easier.

I have no doubt that the spin doctors of the Parliment powers are hard at work, but are they done w/ River & Mal? Will someone be looking for payback due to the fallout of the broadcast going out? Are there other secrets locked away somewhere in River's mind that have not surfaced yet? Who can tell, but if not & the Alliance does leave the crew alone it could mean greener pastures for our BDHs.

Only time, & Joss, will tell.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

Actually the best way for Parilament to damage control now would be to call off the hounds on Simon and River and revoke the warrants on them. Find someone that can be the fall guy for the screwup on Miranda, and claim that they will fix the problem. In fact, they should also find a scapegoat for the secret program River was in and claim ignornace.

Even with this, they have lost public confidence and will need to rebuild it.

As to Mal finding jobs, it may become easier. The Alliance will be occupied with anti-Reaver operations (albeit our BDH made this easier by drawing a large number of them into a firefight with an Alliance battlegroup). Also, they will probably have orders not to interfere with Serenity unless they do something REALLY illegal.

DARKLIGHTER9

Thursday, January 19, 2006 9:27 PM

Im thinking that wot will happen next will be this:
The broardcast that mal sent out at the end of the BDM will cause a second civil war, with the crew of Serenity at the forefront of it in some way, possibly as a crack spy/ search and destroy team working for the new browncoat armies (think the A Team in space). That could be what Joss means by staying in the 'verse but telling a different story. The BDHs won't be criminals or pirates anymore, they will be heros!

_________________________________________________
Reavers Vs Oompaloompas, clash of the titans! (I'm talking scary Oompaloompas with orange skin and green hair, not the rubbish new ones)

CAPTBRYAN

Thursday, January 19, 2006 9:27 PM

Im seeing some of you Condone and some of you Condem the choosen life style of our favority crew.

I guess I stand on the Condone side.

I have been in the place of steal or starve.

Ride or die.

So until you people that Condem get to those places where you gotta choose spitin or swallowin...you have no way of understanding.

________________________________________________

Saying that God authored confusion by creating Lucifer is like saying my sniper rifle goes out all by itself and shoots people 2 miles away so I dont get into trouble.

Ridin the Ocean's boring when there aint no waves

QUEENOFTHENORTH

Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:02 PM

Okay, Citizen, I've just re-read my post and realized I sounded like a complete bitch who was personally attacking you. That wasn't what I was trying to do at all. To be honest, I love arguing and I'm having a right blast having it out with intelligent folk like you and Agentrouka. However, I tend to get a little passionate and black and white in my arguments. So anyways, sorry if I offended you in any way, my humblest of apologies.

Now, to qualify my arguments and make them grayer and more supportable. Instead of referring to the Alliance as evil, I'm gonna call their system corrupt and say that they do do bad things. I think we can all agree on that, yes? Just because they do sometimes do good things doesn't mean they shouldn't be brought down. And for the record, I feel America is the real world version of the Alliance. Their system has become corrupt and they do a lot of unconscionable things. They had some really good ideals there at the beginning, but it's long since gone downhill. Unfortunately, I don't think any country has the power to bring them down right now. Not your homeland, not mine, not anybody's. They don't even listen to the UN anymore, and the UN's supposed to be the voice of morality and reason. My only hope is that the American people can stop their government before something really bad happens.

Now, as to the whole "innocent guy" thing. For the record, let me state here that I think MAL WAS WRONG for killing that soldier. However, I don't think that soldier was innocent by any stretch of the imagination. I think soldiers should be held responsible for their actions on either side. While there's a slim chance that your scenario about the galley cook was possible, I really don't think that that's the case. I don't really think the Operative is gonna send a ship with soldier's living/eating quarters down to destroy a settlement. I figure he would probably send a fighter ship, with guys and weapons. Now, that being said, the guy could have been a pilot.

Let me use Wash's words to address that: "Right, cuz I wouldn't get in trouble if we got caught. I could always say I was flying the ship by accident." I figure, any way you look at it, the people of Haven couldn't have been slaughtered without that guy's help. Which makes him guilty in some small way. That doesn't make what Mal did right, but only because killing is wrong, not because the dude was some innocent saint. I think that was about all the points I was gonna make.

Oh, and Agentrouka, I will try to refrain from making endless fun of you for using the wrong quote.

"I'm having one of those things - a headache with pictures."

"Of course I'm right. And if I'm not, may we all be horribly crushed from above somehow."

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JUBEL

Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:05 PM

mal doesn't live in america or any other democratic nation. he didn't ask to be in the alliance. him and zoe fought againt the alliance takeover of their world. and i'm sure there are other browncoats doing the same as mal and the crew - from other worlds as well. what goes on in the 'verse cannot be compared in any way to our culture. closest you come to that is the american indians. what kind of police state does the alliance run? since the crew spends most of their time on the border worlds we don't really get a glimpse into the true way that the alliance is run - except for what is done with river.