Mal and his people are just low-life thieves...

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 14:32
VIEWED: 39973
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VINK

Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:32 PM

Hey everyone.

Just finished watchin firefly the series and cant wait to watch the movie. though a bit scared cos after that there's nothin new to watch.

I dont think its that easy to categorise the characters on the show as either heroes or villains. People's perceptions of good and evil may vary depending on the circumstances. I will say that on the whole, Mal and his crew do tend to try and do what's morally correct, even if they make a few mistakes on the way. Which is what keeps it interestin for us.

Anyways, thats my two pennies worth(mayb a bit more than two, soz)

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by queenofthenorth:
The Alliance isn't a good empire, either, so don't try to convince anyone that it is.

But who is trying to do that?

All that's said is that the Alliance is neither black nor white. It's grey.

Honestly, do people really think that every single person employed by the Alliance is a blackhearted eater of babies? That every person who happily lives in the Core grows up wanting to murder and oppress in the name of the Alliance? That every low-level Alliance soldier is fully aware of the things that the Alliance is capable of?

It's a sea of millions of people.

The Institution of the Alliance is corrupt, no doubt. But the idea that every single employee in its ranks is equally guilty and corrupt and evil, with nothing but oppression and conspiracy in mind? A little unlikely.

Quote:
The same Alliance who believed Mal guilty of killing an entire shipful of innocent people because he was a Browncoat, with no actual proof?

Mal was a suspect.

Police suspect innocent people all the time. That's not evil, that's called investigating crime.

Being a suspect is not the same as being sentenced guilty. (Or executed on sight, for that matter.)

Not everything every Alliance-employee has ever done is unjustified or mean-spirited.

Edited to insert the correct quote.

CITIZEN

Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:52 PM

Quote:
Orginally posted by XieAining:
Did you even read the post above yours? Honest to Pete.

Yes, I did, one wonders whether you did.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

THESOMNAMBULIST

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:11 PM

To quote Shakespeare:

There is nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

or

I must be cruel to be kind, thus bad begins and worse remains behind.

If you take these on board all actions have a measure of good and bad too them. Many of Mals and the crews actions appear on the surface as bad, or villainous, but beyond that, he is fending for himself and his crew and for their immediate need for survival.

Personally it's a question of survival - that's key to many of there actions...and all species do just about anything to survive, when it comes to it. Good or bad.

If you want to argue about the morals of their actions, well then you have to establish which values we all share and adhere to, and which stand to be respected and which actions may (if at all) be ignored.

But these human frailties are what makes these characters interesting and the dilema they (us) are placed under is what constantly keeps us watching.

Given Mal's character he is more likely to discard a man's life (WOLF) more readily than he is to take sexual advantage of a woman (Saffron). Where that places him in the echelons of moral obligations I dunno. But it's a curious contradiction in the character that adds dimension.

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

QUEENOFTHENORTH

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by queenofthenorth:
The Alliance isn't a good empire, either, so don't try to convince anyone that it is.

But who is trying to do that?

All that's said is that the Alliance is neither black nor white. It's grey.

Honestly, do people really think that every single person employed by the Alliance is a blackhearted eater of babies? That every person who happily lives in the Core grows up wanting to murder and oppress in the name of the Alliance? That every low-level Alliance soldier is fully aware of the things that the Alliance is capable of?

It's a sea of millions of people.

The Institution of the Alliance is corrupt, no doubt. But the idea that every single employee in its ranks is equally guilty and corrupt and evil, with nothing but oppression and conspiracy in mind? A little unlikely.

Quote:
The same Alliance who employs people like the Blue Sun guys, who mercilessly slaughter their own Alliance soldiers just because they talked to River?

Mal was a suspect.

Police suspect innocent people all the time. That's not evil, that's called investigating crime.

Being a suspect is not the same as being sentenced guilty. (Or executed on sight, for that matter.)

Not everything every Alliance-employee has ever done is unjustified or mean-spirited.

I believe Citizen's exact quote was that the Alliance wasn't evil. If it's not evil, that would make it good, yeah? Besides which, I didn't say that everybody who worked for the Alliance was evil. I'm saying that the institution itself is evil, and that some of its citizens are as well. NOT all. And I'm further saying that the Alliance soldier Mal shot was not innocent, and was indeed responsible for what he'd done. That doesn't mean I think every Alliance soldier is evil.

Also, I think you used the wrong quote there.

You used my blue sun quote, then went on to say that Mal was a suspect. Kinda confused me for a second.

To address your argument, I'm not saying that guy was evil because he suspected Mal. I'm saying that one of his reasons for suspecting Mal was simply that he was a Browncoat. I believe he says something along the lines of "Only I think you're still fighting the war. Only these weren't soldiers you killed, but innocent people trying to make lives for themselves, but you couldn't stand that, could you?" Also, had Mal actually made it to trial, I SEVERELY doubt he would have been found innocent, even though the only evidence that he did anything was simply that he was there.

"I'm having one of those things - a headache with pictures."

"Of course I'm right. And if I'm not, may we all be horribly crushed from above somehow."

Like books? Go to this thread: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=14862
to find out how to buy mine!

ITSBROKEN

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Phoebe:
Everything any human ever does is right. Legally wrong, undoubtedly in some cases. But if they think it's right, then it's right. For them. For us it's not. Hell, for some of us it IS right. Not one person has the *exact* same morals, not one of us would draw the EXACT same line and do the exact same thing in any situation. Therefore, we can't 'officially' define what's right or wrong. We just state our *own* morals. It ain't right to force other people to live by our morals. Laws, yes, morals, no.

"It ain't right to force other people to live by our morals." Isn't that, in and of itself, an attempt to force a moral?

lol thats funny. just thought i'd point it out.

-----
***someone should make a MMORPG based on the 'verse!***

Geeze i want Firefly to come back!

-----

CHRISISALL

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:

Again, not saying that I would show mercy; I would have actually been more gratified if Mal had walked on over to that man, ripped him out of his ship, beaten him senseless, and strangled him with his bare hands. Watching that scene, I would have cheered him on.

PrincessRohannen, this comment is by far the most unsettling on this thread for me, and I hope it's just you being dramatic. Mal was angry, yes, and the guy poked his head up at the worst time, but Mal needed him to not be there, so he switched him off. Would you torture a dog that killed someone? No, you put it to sleep. If the scene had played out as you describe, I would never have watched the movie again and given up on Joss' work completly.

Quote:

But, if Mal had left him alive... It's concievable that the soldier might have come to see that Mal was on the right side. Maybe he would even have gone back to the Alliance under cover and worked to help bring it crashing down!:dissapointed: Hard to imagine, but we'll never know if it would have been possible, will we?

Again, I hope you're just goofing around.

Let's look at thoughts as they might occur to that pilot, in order:
" This'll teach those filthy terrorists!
Uh...this don't look like a terrorist cell...
Shit! I'm on another scorched earth mission...
As much as I morally DETEST this, it IS my gorram job, so...
Wha- a gun??!!

Uhh, I must have been out for a few...
Oh boy those folk look like they knew these people, and they're all mad-like. I don't wanna stay on this rock alone. I'll have to take the chance they have SOME respect for Alliance Law...
He's gonna shoot me, oh well-I took a chance..."

Put in that soldier's place, I would expect to be killed.
Anything else is fluffy nonsense, IMO.

Hard Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Given Mal's character he is more likely to discard a man's life (WOLF) more readily than he is to take sexual advantage of a woman (Saffron). Where that places him in the echelons of moral obligations I dunno. But it's a curious contradiction in the character that adds dimension.

This is exactly why I started this thread, I wanted to take measure of how people percieve this as a show/movie about bad guys.

My own take is that 'Law' is an artificial construct, more good than bad, but with serious room for corruption and abuse. Our BDH's seem to also see it this way, and it's no small part of why I love these guys.

Like life, it's mostly grey, with but a few black and white moments.

Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
For all we know that guy could have been the galley cook, and had nothing to do with the slaughter, he could have had no idea there were children and old folk down there, he could of believed they were a disguised terrorist cell. We don’t know and neither did Mal, at the end of the day it was revenge, and revenge isn’t a justification.

Citizen, a rare moment of disagreement...
That was an attack ship, one or two man. He was not a cook.
It was an attack ship for low-atmo strikes; visual range (Or book couldn't have shot it), and this means the trigger-man knows full well who he's shooting (and who's NOT shooting anything back).
The appearance of the pilot alive was a complication Mal didn't need, so he took care of it (The timing was great btw, it underscored Mal's hardness at the moment, nice of that guy to give his life in service to the narrative

)

It's not justice, it's war.
Mal would never have killed the guy if he didn't have to. It was NOT revenge, and it did not make me feel good that he did it (nor Mal, by the look on his face).

It gets hot in the kitchen is all Chrisisall

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by queenofthenorth:

I believe Citizen's exact quote was that the Alliance wasn't evil. If it's not evil, that would make it good, yeah?

Well, it could be ambiguious. It could be flawed. Shades of grey. It's corrupted, but the entire idea of the Alliance, for example, isn't. There's upsides to civilization, unity, progress.

The downside is the fact that the Alliance isn't living up to its own ideals, really.

In some of the arguments here, I sometimes miss the recognition of the fact that it is an institution made up for flesh and blood people. Human beings, just as flawed and good as people on the rim.

Quote:

Also, I think you used the wrong quote there. You used my blue sun quote, then went on to say that Mal was a suspect. Kinda confused me for a second.

Ah, crap, you're right! How embarrassing!

Quote:

To address your argument, I'm not saying that guy was evil because he suspected Mal. I'm saying that one of his reasons for suspecting Mal was simply that he was a Browncoat. I believe he says something along the lines of "Only I think you're still fighting the war. Only these weren't soldiers you killed, but innocent people trying to make lives for themselves, but you couldn't stand that, could you?" Also, had Mal actually made it to trial, I SEVERELY doubt he would have been found innocent, even though the only evidence that he did anything was simply that he was there.

Well, whether he would have been sentenced guilty is pure speculation. They should have some seriously superior crime-solving science available to them. It'd be up to chance whether he'd face a corrupt judge or an honest one.

If you give him the benefit of the doubt and look at it neutrally, it's not utterly reprehensible that he might have a bias in his suspicions. Mal's not simply a man who was a Browncoat, he essentially still is one.

To the side that won and wants peace, that is a reasonable threat, even if they aren't evil. Suspecting him is not such a stretch.

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