Season 6 was the biggest piece of shit ever.
POSTED BY: kookytree
UPDATED: Sunday, July 7, 2002 13:17
VIEWED: 5420
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I cannot believe people are defending season six!! It was car-crashingly bad. This blind sycophancy to Joss is really starting to annoy. The most painful thing about this year was the dialogue- this show used to be packed with witticisms and the like, now the dialogue is clumsy, dull and cliched. The whole Willow-addiction storyline was a disaster- not only was the metaphor insulting in its ham-fisted obviousness, but it took what could have been a powerful storyline about Willow being corrupted by power and turned it into a sub-90210(if possible) pit of awfulness. Xander is now an unapppealing, arrogant, pathetic dick, compared to the funny loser we loved in the first few seasons. Anya went from a pretty funny one off joke to just plain irritating. Michelle Trachtenburg is a good actress playing a ridiculously 2-dimensional character. The only good thing was the Spuffy relationship- I like everynoe had doubts but it was well written and compelling, despite the obvious fact that every writer had a different take on it. I'm just praying that season seven will be better which, lets face it, isnt hard. Doublemeat Palace? Grave? All The Way? Normal Again? Oh, let me lie down again. Nurse, the pills!
Stay kooky.
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Well, I think you're wrong 
That's the value of an opinion. I'm getting tired of everyone trying to defend their stance (though, I have fallen victim to this on more than one occasion).
I think that season six had some very brilliant episodes, though it also contained some of the worst of the series' run (As You Were, Dead Things, Wrecked).
I happened to enjoy Doublemeat Palace, Grave, and Normal Again... stricktly for the dialogue and witticism.
My "blind sycophancy to Joss" is totally unrelated to my enjoyment of this season. Actually, I began to appreciate the writing ability of most of the staff *outside* of Joss, something I rarely did in the past... though, with that came a hate for Marti Noxon's writing style and most of Stephen DeKnight's writing (barring Seeing Red, which is a good episode).
Overall, season 6 was the most experimental season of them all. A lot of the experiments failed, I'll admit, but a lot of them succeeded with flying colors. The directing was far more mature than previous seasons, with a lot more flair for style evident throughout the episodes. The writing had its good and bad, but the good far outweighs the bad in my book. And the season finale was on par with any previous season's. Even though it lacked Joss's writing style, it had a soul, a soul on par with any of the previous season finales. Yes, there were things I would have done differently, but you know what? It's in the past, and I've come to realize that there's no use arguing about this because of the futility of my efforts.
I cannot believe that people keep thinking their opinions are more valid than anyone else's. I think you're an arrogant narcissist for doing this. 
And forgive me for not taking seriously your hackneyed, uncreative argument, which by the way has been argued all over the internet. I've heard all of what you've said over and over and over again... at least give us some fresh insight when you make a claim such as the one you did.
Be mature and chill out, Kooky.
--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--
This one's for Furyfire... 
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Hey, let's watch the name calling and stereotyping. There's a lot about S6 I didn't like -- hated, actually. But as a relatively grown-up person, I try to accept that intelligent people can like stuff I hated. Dismissing their opinions with words like "sycophant" is bigoted, arrogant, childish, and just plain lazy.
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That's the value of an opinion. I'm getting tired of everyone trying to defend their stance (though, I have fallen victim to this on more than one occasion).
Now I just *know* that this isn't going to go over well but here is my stance on the issue (and why I've posted as I have on the Usenet Buffy group for those who know me): I've been fairly nasty about Season 6 (and in some cases the people who liked it, though not nearly as much so as the originator of this thread) because to heap praise on such a season as this and call it great is pretty much an insult to those who have genuinely done great work.
Its like, I don't know, comparing Michael Bay to Robert Altman. To do so is an insult to Altman (for those who don't know who Altman is go to your local Hollywood video and rent Nashville, McCabe & Mrs. Miller, Gosford Park, MASH, and The Player). To say that Season 6 was good is almost to dishonor those seasons that were actually good (both on this show and for others). Is this the slightest bit arrogant on my part? Perhaps, but if more people adopted this belief then I garuantee you that there would be less crap on TV.
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I think that season six had some very brilliant episodes, though it also contained some of the worst of the series' run (As You Were, Dead Things, Wrecked).
Just as an asside: As You Were was the single worst episode of TV that I've ever seen (and I watched the Inside Swartz premiere
), though maybe if I'd seen Danny (Daniel Sterns aborted sitcom that was cancelled after one episode) maybe things would be different.Quote:
Overall, season 6 was the most experimental season of them all. A lot of the experiments failed, I'll admit, but a lot of them succeeded with flying colors.
Um...no it wasn't. Buffy started out as a groundbreakingly great television series. This year, for whatever reason, they decided to fall back on Soap opera cliches that have been used continually (depress, stupid drug addiction plots, sleeping with the bad boy, etc.). Unless something truly miraculous happens in Season 7 (which I doubt, especially since ME has essentially given the Up yours to the old school fans who would have loved a return to normalcy, regardless of their marketing ploy to the contrary) then Season 6 will go down in history as the year Buffy became "just another series".
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The directing was far more mature than previous seasons, with a lot more flair for style evident throughout the episodes.
I'd believe you except that there were *numerous* incidences of very obvious production mistakes in a number of episodes (Older and Far Away, As You Were, and Gone being the most obvious). Part of the problem was that Buffy only had TV director extraordinare James Contner for only 2 episodes (Dead Things and, I believe Grave though it could have been Two to Go).
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The writing had its good and bad, but the good far outweighs the bad in my book. And the season finale was on par with any previous season's.
You are partly right as I agree on the finale (though as per Buffy tradition the first part was slightly better than the second). The ratio of good to bad episode was exactly 50/50 which actually puts it in the negative as the bad was so awfull as to overwhelm the good. THat isn't even going into the long term damage to the "heart" of the series that various arcs suggested (most particularly with the Spike storylines).
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Even though it lacked Joss's writing style, it had a soul, a soul on par with any of the previous season finales. Yes, there were things I would have done differently, but you know what? It's in the past, and I've come to realize that there's no use arguing about this because of the futility of my efforts.
Well its a faint hope but a part of me hopes that the fans (including myself) stirred up enough negative feedback that the producers are going to pull an L.A. Law (backing away from a horrible new direction to refocus on what made the series sp
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I frankly don't understand all the vitriol directed at the show because of this one season (or three, whatever). It's a fictional television drama on the air for 6 years now. Any show, after having produced 100+ eps is going to have its down years. So what of it? You say "I didn't really care for it. Here's why: X, Y and Z" and then you move on. Personal attacks on Marti (though I haven't really seen that on this board, thankfully) is baseless, disgusting, and just dumb.
--- Joe
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I completely agree about the "personal attacks on Marti" thing. That, I think, is taking it too far. I actually think that she 'gets' these characters better than Joss does sometimes, which is whyI was so surprised at how bad season six was with her at the helm. I just dont understand why they didnt end it at season 5. The obvious answer would be money, I guess, seeing as UPN paid up so much for it.
"I cannot believe that people keep thinking their opinions are more valid than anyone else's."
Um, when did I say this. If I came across that way then I came across wrong. But just because my opinion conflicts with yours, you seem to think that means I believe mine is more important than yours. Thats not my problem, and indeed, you are being incredibly hypocritical by saying this because you clearly believe what you think is more valid than what I do, or you wouldn't have taken so badly to it.
"I think you're an arrogant narcissist for doing this."
Oh really? I have to confess to not watching much TV, but I always have time for Buffy and Angel- silly as it may be I became attached to the characters and looked forward to each new installment. So when a massive drop in quality occurs, as it did this year, then excuse me for not going along with your opinions and expressing dissapointment. :disapointed: I dont think what I said was particularly arrogant- Ive listened to all the pro season six arguments, and given my take on them. To be honest, I think the huge amount of pro season six arguments Ive come across just stink of desperation. Did you see any such actions for earlier seasons?? No, because everyone knew those were gr8. but this season was awful and people cant deal with the fact that their favourite show may not be up to scratch for once. And narcissism? Chile, do u even know what that means?? Not once did I compliment myself during my post. Just critisised others 
"And forgive me for not taking seriously your hackneyed, uncreative argument, which by the way has been argued all over the internet."
Um, firstly, maybe *you* need to spend a little less time on the internet. And secondly, I think YOU saying MY argument was uncreative is the ultimate in irony. Not only that, but i think when you said "hackneyed" and "uncreative", in just two words you summed up the season you're so desperately defending :) And finally, you clearly do take what I said seriously, or why else would you have even bothered to reply??
"I've heard all of what you've said over and over and over again... at least give us some fresh insight when you make a claim such as the one you did."
Ditto my friend. At least I *had* an argument. Yours seemed to be simply pointless objections at what I said. I think *you* are the one who needs to chill.
Stay kooky.
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Originally posted by kookytree:
Um, when did I say this. If I came across that way then I came across wrong. But just because my opinion conflicts with yours, you seem to think that means I believe mine is more important than yours. Thats not my problem, and indeed, you are being incredibly hypocritical by saying this because you clearly believe what you think is more valid than what I do, or you wouldn't have taken so badly to it.
When someone comes out with a blanket statement along the lines of the one you did, with the vindictivity toward the fans of season 6, of course I'm going to get defensive. And yes, you did imply that your opinion is more valid than the fans of season 6 with your absolute and apparently unrefutable claims. Have your opinions, I don't mind them, but cut it out with the hostility.
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Oh really? I have to confess to not watching much TV, but I always have time for Buffy and Angel- silly as it may be I became attached to the characters and looked forward to each new installment. So when a massive drop in quality occurs, as it did this year, then excuse me for not going along with your opinions and expressing dissapointment. :disapointed: I dont think what I said was particularly arrogant- Ive listened to all the pro season six arguments, and given my take on them. To be honest, I think the huge amount of pro season six arguments Ive come across just stink of desperation. Did you see any such actions for earlier seasons?? No, because everyone knew those were gr8. but this season was awful and people cant deal with the fact that their favourite show may not be up to scratch for once. And narcissism? Chile, do u even know what that means?? Not once did I compliment myself during my post. Just critisised others
Arrogant be you. You gave your opinion an undue sense of importance. That's pretty much the definition of arrogance.
Narcissistic be you as well. Clearly, you find yourself more important that anyone else, which is obvious by absolutness of your post. You may not have complimented yourself in your post, but the tone was clearly designed along a set of self-loving parameters.
Apparently, I'm not the only one who noticed these traits in your little rant.
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Um, firstly, maybe *you* need to spend a little less time on the internet. And secondly, I think YOU saying MY argument was uncreative is the ultimate in irony. Not only that, but i think when you said "hackneyed" and "uncreative", in just two words you summed up the season you're so desperately defending :) And finally, you clearly do take what I said seriously, or why else would you have even bothered to reply??
Ironic, eh? Care to explain?
Did I even try to defend the season? No. That is what I was trying to point out. "It's in the past, and I've come to realize that there's no use arguing about this because of the futility of my efforts." That's a direct quote, Kook. Check this one out too: "That's the value of an opinion. I'm getting tired of everyone trying to defend their stance (though, I have fallen victim to this on more than one occasion)." Read my entire post before you attack.
Yes, you have your opinions, and I'm not denying them; I'm not even going to try. But, you apparently don't understand the idea of civility, so I won't waste my time explaining myself further. You'll just attack more, anyway.
Oh, and it's not hard to find a raving season 6 hater online. Go to any message board and they're full of them. Maybe you should stop attacking me and start working on the flaws in your netiquette... or heaven forbid, developing a mind of your own. And until I hear some fresh insight, I'll think of you as a sheep without a mind of his/her own.
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Ditto my friend. At least I *had* an argument. Yours seemed to be simply pointless objections at what I said. I think *you* are the one who needs to chill.
Blah blah blah. Once again, I say that I was not trying to argue. I was trying
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OK, this may look like an argument... I'd prefer to call it defending my integrity, for the sake of hypocrisy and the like. I apologize in advance for the length.
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Originally posted by millernate:
I've been fairly nasty about Season 6 (and in some cases the people who liked it, though not nearly as much so as the originator of this thread) because to heap praise on such a season as this and call it great is pretty much an insult to those who have genuinely done great work.
I know this isn’t a personal attack, but I resent this statement on behalf of all those who genuinely enjoyed the season. A lot of season 6 was very well done. Yes, there were bad episodes, yes there were horrible, horrible scripts… and yes there were clichéd and horrifyingly bad plot developments. But, there were several… nay, many episodes (the beginning 8 episodes and the last 4) that portrayed some of the most interesting concepts in the history of television (I’ll touch on this in more detail later) which should have had an intense impact on its viewers, had the experiment not failed halfway through the season, only to be rejuvenated during the final plot sub-arc.
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Its like, I don't know, comparing Michael Bay to Robert Altman. To do so is an insult to Altman (for those who don't know who Altman is go to your local Hollywood video and rent Nashville, McCabe & Mrs. Miller, Gosford Park, MASH, and The Player). To say that Season 6 was good is almost to dishonor those seasons that were actually good (both on this show and for others). Is this the slightest bit arrogant on my part? Perhaps, but if more people adopted this belief then I garuantee you that there would be less crap on TV.
I would hardly compare anything to season 6 the way I would compare Michael Bay to Robert Altman. Mainly because Robert Altman is a brilliant and severely underrated filmmaker, and Michael Bay is an exploitive moron who is somehow expected to put out a movie like Armageddon every time he works on a film… which is indicative of American culture, but that’s a whole different rant.
Look at it as a whole… Season 6 had a few very interesting concepts with which to work.
There is a woman being pulled out of heaven to resume a hellish life on Earth; a vampire who has lost the monster within him but cannot be good because he has no soul; a one time geeky school girl who is seduced by power and corrupted by darkness, and a boy on the verge of manhood but who fails entering into the “land of the adults” at the worst possible moment. These are all topics (or at least metaphors for topics) that people as individuals have experienced to a certain degree in their lifetimes. However, the potential impact of these concepts was never fully realized, and most were completely bastardized into soap opera clichéd, mindless trash (by a woman who has thus far garnered entirely too much credit for the series… but I will avoid that woman’s name as best I can because it was not all her fault).
Had season 6 carried the direction of seasons 1-5, I have no doubt that these concepts would have been executed the way they were intended. But alas, no sense crying over spilt milk. I have said that this season is my favorite, but I will revise my statement. The idea of this season was my favorite, and had it continued as it did in the first eight episodes and the last 4 episodes, it would have garnered its place as the best.
Though I know this is not a personal attack, I feel you underestimate fans who enjoyed season 6’s appreciation of film. You insinuate that all people who thought season 6 was even good are insulting, dishonorable, and people who don’t appreciate good film. That is sort of inappropriate, and yes, arrogant.
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Just as an asside: As You Were was the single worst episode of TV that I've ever seen (and I watched the Inside Swartz premiere
I agree
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I'd believe you except that there were *numerous* incidences of very obvious production mistakes in a number of episodes (Older and Far Away, As You Were, and Gone being the most obvious). Part of the problem was that Buffy only had TV director extraordinare James Contner for only 2 episodes (Dead Things and, I believe Grave though it could have been Two to Go).
I agree with your assessment of the production errors in Older and Far Away, As You Were, and Gone. However, I must mention that Gone was David Fury’s directorial debut and As You Were was Doug Petrie’s second. Older and Far Away was, from what I can tell, not directed poorly as much as it was written in a very disjointed manner.
When I say that the directing was much more mature, I am referring to episodes like Dead Things, Seeing Red, Once More With Feeling, Grave, Smashed, Villains, Bargaining pt 1, Doublemeat Palace, and Life Serial. All of these episodes contain many inventive and creative methods of portraying the story visually. Whereas in the past very few episodes did anything other than straightforward and standard dramatic television convention, this season relied on a lot of different and innovative methods to illustrate certain effects. They had much more style, were better lit (at least in most instances), and were not afraid to work “outside of the box.” This is what I mean by maturity… these directors, James A. Contner, David Grossman, Nick Marck, Turi Meyer, and of course, Joss Whedon, have reached a level in their careers where they have confidence in their abilities enough to work outside of the material to which they have grown accustomed (not in Whedon or Contner’s cases… they are pretty much the only two who produced a distinct style of filmmaking in their previous episodes of Buffy).
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You are partly right as I agree on the finale (though as per Buffy tradition the first part was slightly better than the second). The ratio of good to bad episode was exactly 50/50 which actually puts it in the negative as the bad was so awfull as to overwhelm the good. THat isn't even going into the long term damage to the "heart" of the series that various arcs suggested (most particularly with the Spike storylines).
Oh, I’m only right because I share the same opinion as you, eh?
I count 8 very good episodes, 8 “meh” episodes, and 6 god awful hideous pieces of crap. 4 of the 8 very good episodes are some of the best in Buffy’s history. 6 of the god awful hideous pieces of crap are the worst in Buffy’s history. So, if those 4 cancel 4 of the others out, there are still 2 worst episodes ever.
If a best episode is worth 15/15 points, and a worst episode is worth 0/15 points, we are left with 60/150 points. If a good is worth 10/15, and a meh is worth 5/15, that gives us a total of 140/330. That’s 42%.
As a scale, season 2, with the overall most best episodes(8 best, 8 good, 6 meh, 0 worst), by the same logic, garnered a 70%
Therefore, Buffy average is 56% Season 6 falls just below average. If it were graded on a 30% curve, with season 2 as an A+ (100%), season 6 gets a C- (72%).
Now… if you want to know anything else, figure it out yourself
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Well its a faint hope but a part of me hopes that the fans (including myself) stirred up enough negative feedback that the producers are going to pull an L.A. Law (backing away from a horrible new direction to refocus on what made the series special in its last season after a truly awfull previous year). Plus there's always the historical fight to win
In retrospect, this post has made me reconsider my opinion of season 6 as a whole. I no longer see the whole thing as my favorite season... I see the concepts of season 6 as my favorite. I love the Trio and their position in the Buffyverse (necessary because it reinforced the idea that
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Aw, you know what I dont wanna get into pointless arguments. You wanna think I'm narcissistic and arrogant? Fine. I dont have the energy. I dont like Season six. You do. Lets just leave it at that i dont wanna make enemies over such a trivial thing. Sure I made some blanket arguments but thats the way I feel. Im not gonna apologise because I dont feel sorry for what I felt, and neither should you. Whenever I post on the Internet, I always concentrate what Im saying rather than giving different aspects of an argument, which I'd do in real life, simply because I wanna cut to the chase rather than writing an epic, which i self consciously realise I'm doing now lol. Sure there was some good stuff about season six, but overall I just felt short changed and incredibly dissapointed.
Ive just read my original post and I pretty much stick by it, extreme as it may be. I was obv having a bad day lol. Ultimately its just a TV show. Lets forget it and move on to new pastures. Like season 7, which from what I hear should be much better thank god. You obv dont give a shit about my opinions, and indeed why should you?
To be honest, I dont wanna get in a bitch-slap contest. Theres no point. I come in peace.
Stay kooky.
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