Tim Minear reveals another unfilmed FF episode
POSTED BY: Blinker
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 07:31
VIEWED: 54391
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Before she actually talked to Fess, which thing did you think was guaranteed to happen while she was with him? That she would have sex with him or that she would end up helping him to become a stronger person?
Obviously we expected sex; that's what she's paid to do and, although the psychological help was more valuable to Fess, she gained nothing from it. There are two ways you can view that particular interaction:
1) This scene shows how wise Inara is when it comes to these sorts of issues and that she is the sort of person who will happily help others in need when it comes to her areas of expertise.
2) This is in fact just another technique she learned to help seduce people like Fess, and his mental well-being was never really on her mind; it was just a device to get him to have sex with her so that she could get paid for doing her job.
Either way, if Fess didn’t have the insecurities that he did, or he didn't voice them, she would have had sex with him all the same. Fess was grateful for the mental help she gave him, but she was paid for the sex that ensued; just like a regular prostitute.
As for the 'whore or not' issue, that boils down to your opinions on the principles of selling yourself for sex. A whore is someone who compromises principle for personal gain. Companions and prostitutes both sell their bodies for financial gain; if you consider having sex with someone for money as compromising on principles, then companions and common prostitutes are both whores, if not, then neither are.
And 'diner' is not a derogatory word, it’s a name given to restaurants that are housed in buildings designed to look like dining cars. The only reason you wouldn’t ever call a 5-star eatery a diner is because none of them happen to be of the diner design.
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XG--
And still you haven't bothered to give an answer your own self.
Though, truthfully, I can't even read your post without laughing at you. Is there a point to any of it?
Your estimation of my professional life is certainly flattering, too.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceHopper:
As for the 'whore or not' issue, that boils down to your opinions on the principles of selling yourself for sex. A whore is someone who compromises principle for personal gain. Companions and prostitutes both sell their bodies for financial gain; if you consider having sex with someone for money as compromising on principles, then companions and common prostitutes are both whores, if not, then neither are.
I find, I can completely agree with that. It's sort of what I mean, except much more clearly said.
Basically, Mal calls Inara a whore because she compromises his principles with what is her own business.
Except he doesn't seem to have a problem with all prostitution, just her, judging by "Heart of Gold". Which calls into question the solidity of his principles. But then, it's pretty clear that the "whore" comments are fuelled by personal reasons rather than philosophical, so whatever.
Thanks for the discussion. *g*
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And 'diner' is not a derogatory word, it’s a name given to restaurants that are housed in buildings designed to look like dining cars. The only reason you wouldn’t ever call a 5-star eatery a diner is because none of them happen to be of the diner design.
I didn't know that. Thank you for the trivia. Substitute it with fast food joint, then.
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Ahh.. some people in life... you can answer them direct, you can reanswer when they reword and then re-ask the same question over and over. But, they always can reask the question as if somehow the answer you gave them made no sense.
It's a debating tactic (the "stall") that hopefully will die one day.
How about if you give your moral and ethical argument for "WHY" prostituion is so acceptable.
Would sure beat the hell out of you dancing around the subject.
AGENTROUKA: Why is prostitution a legitimate profession? What are YOUR views on the morality of it?
2 simple questions. Direct.
Help me to understand. I'm openminded. Make me know the answers to these questions. OR, rather than answer, maybe you could ask me "WHY" I would ask you why I would ask you if prostitution is a legitimate profession (no that's not an accidental doubletype). Maybe you could ask me why I would ask YOUR views on the morality of it. Maybe.
Anyone can infinitely doublespeak their way out of a debate rather than answer direct questions. They usually end up as lawyers, doctors, or politicians.
I've answered your questions... it's way past your turn to do the same. Your position is a tenuous one, and you're avoiding it.
XG
No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.
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It looks we're getting somewhere. :)
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Originally posted by XeroGravity:
AGENTROUKA: Why is prostitution a legitimate profession? What are YOUR views on the morality of it?
2 simple questions. Direct.
1) Because it doesn't harm anyone.
Prostitution in and of itself is nothing but an exchange of money for services. The things that make it dangerous for prostitutes have nothing to do with the concept itself but rather the circumstances surrounding it.
Like poverty. Women who are prostitutes against their will or because they are economically forced to be, for one.
Violence. Which is a crime, regardless of whether used against a prostitute or any other woman. Lack of legal protection makes prostitution (especially poverty-induced, involuntary prostitution) vulnerable to this. Similarly, violence by prostitutes against their customers, for theft or the like, is a crime born of poverty or just plain badness, not the concept of prostitution.
Disease. Which is a problem of carelessness on both sides and up to the individual him- and herself just like with unpaid sex.
Social stigma. Which, as I argue, is unjust.
All those are are social problems not inherent in the concept of prostitution itself.
2) Something that doesn't harm anyone, I find no problem with.
Prostitution wouldn't be around if there wasn't a market for it. Supply and demand. People have always been willing to pay for sex, so sex is for sale, by men and women.
As long as the prostitute is in the business out of her own free will (and that includes being of age and having a professional alternative) I see no victim, no harm, no reason to condemn.
Same goes for the customer. Long as it is his free will to visit the prostitute and he pays what he owes, no harm done.
If either of those parties are cheating on a significant other, that makes them immoral, but on a personal level. They could just as well be cheating without pay involved, so again it has nothing to do with prostitution. It has to do with them being cheats.
Someone who values sex as a sacred bond between husband and wife and/or two people in love, well, they won't be getting into that business, now will they? No harm, either.
Now, you could perhaps explain in short, precise sentences what it is you do find objectionable about it, and who it is harming, if at all.
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Help me to understand. I'm openminded. Make me know the answers to these questions.
I can't make you know anything. I can only politely state my personal views, as you refuse to do.
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OR, rather than answer, maybe you could ask me "WHY" I would ask you why I would ask you if prostitution is a legitimate profession (no that's not an accidental doubletype). Maybe you could ask me why I would ask YOUR views on the morality of it. Maybe.
Now why would I wanna do that? (Heh.) You asked directly, I answered.
Like I did before. Except you didn't answer and instead went on to insult me.
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I've answered your questions... it's way past your turn to do the same.
No, you haven't. Your answer was "If you don't get it now, you never will", which in my book is not an answer. It's childish evasion, sweety.
So step up to the plate or stop trying to psycho-analyze me. It's amusing, for certain, but it also makes me wonder just what your hang-up with tertiary education is. Or psychologists. Or medical professionals. I won't ask about Freud, because that man truly was a nutcake.
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Heh. Your stock is rising with me. I thought I was the only person on Earth who thought Freud was a nutjob.
I come from a long line of quacks. I was the black sheep in the family who didn't go medical. No hangup, but a distinct queeziness. The antiseptic smell of hospitals repulses me.
We fundamentally agree on many things in principle. Such as the causes and conditions that drive someone into prostitution. If it's forced, then it's slavery. However, that's where the similarities end.
If it's a laissez-faire service between consenting adults, I don't buy into the whole poverty excuse. Better to live on the edge of starvation or beg then go that route. I think someone should be willing to fight to survive and even risk death from starvation before they dehumanize themselves like that. If they are claiming to do it for fun, it's a selfrespect and selfesteem issue. That's how I view it. Not speaking from experience, so it could easily be argued I have no right to have such views. But I do.
I just can't make the leap that it's ever acceptable when it's a choice they make. The whole 3rd world is filled with women living under crushing poverty (many of whom have many children and no husband or family to help provide for them). If they have a will to survive, I believe they can always manage survival without choosing to sell themselves.
BTW... you just called me "sweety". I've been assuming you were a dude up until now. I'm guessing I was wrong.
XG
No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.
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Quote:
Originally posted by XeroGravity:
Heh. Your stock is rising with me. I thought I was the only person on Earth who thought Freud was a nutjob.
Hardly!
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I think someone should be willing to fight to survive and even risk death from starvation before they dehumanize themselves like that. If they are claiming to do it for fun, it's a selfrespect and selfesteem issue. That's how I view it. Not speaking from experience, so it could easily be argued I have no right to have such views. But I do.
Well, if a person hates the idea of selling sex and does it anyway, well, that's their personal problem. Again, it has nothing to do with the concept itself.
Poverty can make a person turn into a thief. That it will make a person turn into a prostitute isn't that much of a stretch. It's just a fact, and a sad one. People will make moral compromises when pressed.
Personally, I find thieving to be the morally questionable one, whereas prostitution is only a case of compromising personal values.
I find it a bit narrow-minded to assume that any person who willingly goes into the business (as it should be) has self-esteem issues. Their personal boundaries are different, but that doesn't make them damaged in any way.
Sex is just sex. It's not inherently degrading. Whatever informs the experience is tied to the circumstances.
If it's love, then it's personal and intimate and fun.
If it's lust, it's less personal and intimate, but no less fun.
If it's rape, it's traumatizing and wrong.
If it's a choice against your inclination, well, it's probably going to be bad.
If it's for money, then it'll be a show, fake and probably not much fun, either, but that doesn't mean it would be wrong. Or degrading. It would just not be personal or intimate or fun.
(Matter of fact, selling my brain to do mind-numbing office work is also no fun at all.)
If you are so inclined, you can combine lust and pay, which is probably a very rare case, though.
I have no illusions about paid sex being fun for a prostitute. But it's her body and her choice and assuming it's automatically degrading is saying some very judgmental things about her right to do with her body as she pleases.
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BTW... you just called me "sweety". I've been assuming you were a dude up until now. I'm guessing I was wrong.
As girly as they come. But would a guy calling you sweety be shocking?
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Would a "guy" calling me "sweety" be "shocking"?
Yes. Are you a guy? You've called me sweety. Should I be shocked? The answer to that question is hinged on you answering questions. I asked you if you were a guy, you answered "as girly as they come". Clever. Not a yes, or a no. Just a riddle. Like I said. Answer a question with a question. Never take a stand.
Duck and dodge direct questions, answer questions with questions. Or perhaps subtle statements that presume questions. Never answer direct. It's always such a mystery. You've diffused every attempt at direct questioning thru the whole length of this thread. You've redirected the arguments endlessly. I smell lawyerific cross-examination abilities in you. A hopelessly unwinnable logicloop that never ends.
You entered a very interesting thread of discussion a while back and managed to kill it. Kudos, you do your dirty work very very well.
I'm sorry... where were we? Oh yeah... rape and prostitution. Umm... yes rape is bad... prostitution is bad! or (?) in place of (!). Can you tell me if I'm right or wrong? I forget where we were. Definately could use some direction. Or redirection. Confusing. Unconfuse me? Or confuse me. It's all good. Just as long as it's at an end.
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XG -
I killed the discussion?
That's an amusing theory. And all because I wouldn't answer direct whether I'm of the XX or XY chromosome persuasion?
I didn't realize you would be that easy to distract from the very clear discussion point I made in the rest of my last post. Nor did I realize it mattered so terribly.
Fear not, I'm no more interested in keeping this going than you.
Though, I admit, I'll miss the numerous allegaions as to my professional life. Doctor. Psychiatrist. Now lawyer! Where else could I be flattered like this on a regular basis?
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You ever read "SNOW CRASH" - perhaps it wasn't a disease at all. Perhaps it was an instrument to inject the poison into anyone who raped her. Something that she..well... inserted.
Last I heard, they sell these in Africa... although they don't inject poison - they just shy of casterate the guy.
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