Tim Minear reveals another unfilmed FF episode

POSTED BY: Blinker
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 07:31
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AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 8:20 PM

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Originally posted by EmeraldEAD:
Actually Zoe works very hard NOT to tell him when he goes too far and is very cautious and apologetic when she does step towards that line (ie making the decision to come back in Out of Gas and in other places). She only makes suggestions and questions to Mal.

Actually, I think the apology in "Out of Gas" was kindly sarcastic, judging by her smile and the tone of her voice.

It's true, Zoe doesn't often directly confront Mal, but when she chooses to, she doesn't have to be overt about it. She glares let's him know she disagrees and that's all it takes. It's an explicit warning.

We haven't yet seen a situation where she would outright disagree with Mal's chosen course. That doesn't mean she wouldn't put up a fight if she truly disagreed with him.

Besides, the scene is described as this:

"Mal tries to get in to see her and Zoe tells him he’s the last person Inara needs to see. He pushes past her, kneels before Inara and kisses her hand."

This version is exactly in keeping with Zoe's M.O.

"Later, in Inara's shuttle, it's only Zoe there, guarding her silently. Mal tried to come in, and Zoe opens a can of whup ass and tells Mal no fucking way is anyone coming in."

This might just be hyperbole. Otherwise, it could also be the first time Zoe directly confronts him harshly. Not an unconceivable thing.

Besides, he does end up getting into the shuttle. That, too, would be in keeping with their characters.

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She's never felt a protector of Inara and I can't see why she would think Mal would harm her. He's the captain, if things need to be done, he needs to see them.

But there wouldn't exactly be anything he'd need to do in Inara's shuttle when she's "curled up and post-traumatic". I can't think of a Captain-y thing he could do there that would be for Inara's benefit.

This wouldn't be an instant of personally protecting Inara, but rather of Zoe as a woman being there for another woman. Making sure she is not alone and also keeping out further stress.

Who beside Zoe would be up for it, really?

I doubt she'd think Mal would want to harm her. But he could easily upset her without wanting to. Zoe knows that. So she tell him he should stay out.

I don't understand what would be so out of character about that.

EMERALDEAD

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 8:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Besides, the scene is described as this:

"Mal tries to get in to see her and Zoe tells him he’s the last person Inara needs to see. He pushes past her, kneels before Inara and kisses her hand."

This version is exactly in keeping with Zoe's M.O.

Ahh yes I agree. That version makes perfect sense.

Of ALL the plot ideas given, this is the only one I see likely or plausible.

I just don't see Joss putting Inara in that situation, whether it's Reavers or normal people. It would completely degrade the strength and character of Inara that has been built up (mostly in Shindig) about being able to do her business in her field as well as Mal does in his.

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This wouldn't be an instant of personally protecting Inara, but rather of Zoe as a woman being there for another woman.

Ugh no!!!! Way too stereotypical and trite! I can see Simon doing this more than Zoe.

Anyway, who better but Zoe to know that Inara needs no protection from Mal?

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Who beside Zoe would be up for it, really?

Simon.

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I doubt she'd think Mal would want to harm her. But he could easily upset her without wanting to. Zoe knows that. So she tell him he should stay out.

I don't understand what would be so out of character about that.

I can see her suggesting that he needs to stay out, yes. I can't see her in the other version of being some hulking bodyguard to the point of violence with her captain.

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 9:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EmeraldEAD:
I just don't see Joss putting Inara in that situation, whether it's Reavers or normal people. It would completely degrade the strength and character of Inara that has been built up (mostly in Shindig) about being able to do her business in her field as well as Mal does in his.

I agree with that 100%. *g*

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This wouldn't be an instant of personally protecting Inara, but rather of Zoe as a woman being there for another woman.

Ugh no!!!! Way too stereotypical and trite! I can see Simon doing this more than Zoe.

But how is it stereotypical and trite?

If Inara was attacked by (cannibalistic, vicious) men, then a woman's presence would be automatically less threatening. We're talking, I repeat, about "shaking and post-traumatic". Subtle clues count in that state of mind.

As a woman, Zoe would also be able to relate to Inara in a way that a man cannot. It's not a stereotype, it's just a biological fact. Plus, as a veteran, she has seen post-traumatic in a way that Simon most likely hasn't.

Simon is awkward as hell. He can just barely summon the words to calm down River, and he's her brother. Medically, he's great, but interpersonally... not so much.

Not to mention, he would have been the one to treat her medically, which is also something Inara would like to distance herself from when she's supposed to get some rest and slowly calm down.

Zoe's presence would be the calmest and most neutral.

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Anyway, who better but Zoe to know that Inara needs no protection from Mal?

That's physically speaking. I'm talking emotionally.

Mal's obvious relationship with Inara is an adversary one. Insults and power games. His more intimate moments with Inara have never been witnessed by the crew.

Zoe would hardly be able to guess that Mal is about to make a fairly significant gesture of respect toward Inara.

All she would see is that the Captain is a potentially upsetting visitor for someone who is not in a state to receive visitors, at all.

For what it's worth, I'm certain she would have sent Kaylee away, too. River, too. It's just Mal we know of here.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Thursday, November 24, 2005 1:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
It's a completely inefficient weapon, unless in an unpreventable yet expected attack

I think you managed to totally miss my point. Probably not your fault though. I'll try again.

Inara's job means that she will be a target for a rape, and the fact she travels by shuttle means that, provided her client isn't the one doing it (why would a client need to?), she should have ample warning.

HOWEVER in fiction and reality alike ample warning does not mean avoidably. As such in the time she has to prepare, be those preparations for fight or flight, she could easily giver herself an injection. The injection, one assumes it wears off in time, will cause no damage if she gets away or wins the fight, but will make all the difference in the world (to her attacker at least) if she loses.

She is unlikely to ever be in a situation in which she would be raped without sufficient warning, she is very likely to be in a situation where she may be raped, and though it may be only small conciliation to her it would certainly be nice to kill the ones who did it.

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However, it stands to question how much his respect of her is worth when he keeps trying to shame her for her life choices.

I never got the impression that he was trying to shame her. Inara uses whore as a totally non-derogatory term (Heart of Gold), and I don’t see why we should assume a double standard. If Inara sees it as non-derogatory and Mal sees it as MORE socially acceptable I don’t see how you can believe that he considers it shameful.

The first time we hear him use the term whore (in the episode Serenity) his voice shows nothing but amusement at Book’s misunderstanding of the situation. There is no indication of disrespect.

When he says he’ll keep out of her “whoring” he shows in the same sentence that he considers the profession at least as respectable as thieving (Trash). In Shindig he shows that he considers whore a term that is to be used in non derogatory conversation between equals.

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Mal may respect her, but he treats her disrespectcully regardless.

Once again I have to disagree.

Inara describes Mals attitude as a dislike of pretension (Serenity the episode, original cut) and I have never seen any evidence that it is anything else. Further it always seemed clear to me that Inara knew that too. He is not disrespecting her, he is not even disrespecting her profession (though he doesn’t seem to like it) he is merely using a more descriptive term. It’s like someone who says “shell shock” to a psychologist specializing in Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome.

Inara never shows anymore distaste than a psychologist presented with that terminology will.

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That is takes this sort of attack for him to step off his judgmental high horse does not reflect very well on him, nor do I find it a particularly original idea that seeing her weak helps him develop a kinder attitude than, say, seeing her strong.

I hope I’ve made it clear that I never saw him being on that horse to begin with, that said I also think you miss the point of that, decidedly unoriginal, move.

When people are traumatized, especially raped, they often lose their self respect. I don’t mean the kind of self respect people toss around in casual conversation, I mean the kind of self respect that is required to be a complete person. One of the ways to help someone regain self respect is to show them respect.

There is nothing remotely kind about what Mal was to do, it was utilitarian. It is no kinder than beating a child for “his own good” when he does something wrong. If Mal was going to be kind he would have apologized, he would have talked to her, he would have done the very things we are told he was specifically not going to do.

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The unoriginal idea you’re talking about, which I don’t think is included in the story based on our limited information, I have always seen as a difference not between weak and strong but rather honesty and pretence. In movi

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, November 24, 2005 3:25 AM

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Originally posted by christhecynic:
Inara's job means that she will be a target for a rape, and the fact she travels by shuttle means that, provided her client isn't the one doing it (why would a client need to?), she should have ample warning.

I am honestly not trying to be obtuse here, but could you perhaps give me an example of a situation?

One that is likely enough to cause Companions to develop a weapon of this sort? One that occurs on Core planets just as much as border planets? (Because, as I remember, your argument was that this was a Guild-produced drug.)

I honestly cannot picture a situation that isn't completely random, where Inara would know she's going to be raped yet has no way to prevent it, while still having the time to inject herself.

Also: Why does Inara's job make her a target for rape, any more than a regular high-class woman? The greatest danger and difference I see here are indeed the clients, who, as you say, would have no interest in raping her.

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I never got the impression that he was trying to shame her. Inara uses whore as a totally non-derogatory term (Heart of Gold), and I don’t see why we should assume a double standard.

I was half-way through replying to the rest of your post until it occured to me that you might just be joking here.

Are you?

I always considered that Mal's calling her a whore was about as unquestionably disrespectful and aimed at shaming as it gets. A fact of the show.

I won't be able to sleep unless you tell me you're just kidding me. Or if you aren't.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Thursday, November 24, 2005 3:45 AM

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I won't be able to sleep unless you tell me you're just kidding me. Or if you aren't.

Well then sleep well knowing that I am not. In the whole series we only met one friend of Inara’s, a woman of class and sophistication who she calls a whore. Long before then we saw that when Book says Mal should not have called Inara a whore her response is simple: Mal is opposed to pretence. Whenever Mal uses the word whore, or one of its many derivatives, there is no hint of disrespect in his tone.

The only time I do recall a hint of disrespect was when he asked if the distress was in someone’s pants. That’s a question that could be just as easily asked by a person who finds the career respectable (it is obviously odd for a companion to get a distress call, and humor isn’t always uncalled for), and Inara had to bait him to make him say it.

He is obviously aware of the fact that it irks her, but irking someone, even intentionally, is not the same as treating them without respect. She makes clear that she doesn’t consider the word whore derogatory, he makes clear that he does not consider it derogatory, so if neither of them thinks of it that way where is the disrespect?

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, November 24, 2005 4:48 AM

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Originally posted by christhecynic:

Well then sleep well knowing that I am not.

Oookay. I am going to argue this a little. No offense intended, just... bafflement. :)

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In the whole series we only met one friend of Inara’s, a woman of class and sophistication who she calls a whore.

True. Inara there is using it as a descriptive to separate Companions from regular prostitutes.

It is noteworthy here that Mal mentions that he thought she wasn't fond of the word. That he is susprised she would use it at all. That's not how he'd react with a neutral descriptor.

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Long before then we saw that when Book says Mal should not have called Inara a whore her response is simple: Mal is opposed to pretence.

Actually, her response is "Believe me, I've called him worse."

Implying that "whore" is at the very least bad.

When she came aboard, she specified that he cannot call her whore. Looking less than thrilled to have to do so.

Even IF he didn't consider the word derrogatory in reference to Inara, it is disrespectful of him to call her something she has clearly told him not to.

She always reacts negatively, and not just with mild annoyance. In "Serenity" she turns right around from walking down the stairs to back up, refusing to meet the rest of the passengers. Her mood goes from cheerful to chilly and she throws the word back at him, without smiling, in a way that shows she took offense.

In "Shindig" her friendly fencing lesson turns to icy anger, prompting the entire discussion about respect and disrespect to even come up.

Before, when they are dancing, he continuously takes jabs at her. "You have no right to try and make me feel ashamed of my work." Inara says. "What I do is legal. And how's that smuggling coming along?"

These are two people insulting each other.

In "Trash" she says "That didn't take long!" when he drops the word. An expected insult.

In "The Message", when Mal refuses her help to protect her career, she replies "The career you abhor and look down on?" He doesn't deny that in the least.

It is fairly clear that Inara feels offended, even hurt when he calls her a whore, precisely because of the words traditional connotations.

IF Mal didn't intend to offend her, it'd be callous to continue doing so. Both ways aren't exactly glowing with respect.

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Whenever Mal uses the word whore, or one of its many derivatives, there is no hint of disrespect in his tone.

Sarcasm? Context?

The first time he does, he's offended by her Alliance ties. "I imagine you're not the only whore that did [support unification]."

In "Serenity" he sets up her profession as a crass contrast to the Shepherd's misunderstanding. He doesn't allow Inara to explain herself, he cuts in with a word that carries some clearly derrogatory connotations, meaning he wanted the contrast to be crass.

Ambassador = good.
Contrast: whore = bad.

When he says "whoring" in Trash, he is clearly agitated and offended by her interference in his own work.
He does call YoSaffBridge a whore when she flies off in his shuttle. Obviously meant as an insult then, too.

Oh, and in the little blurb at the top of this thread, he clearly makes a distinction between "whore" and "lady". He doesn't take that distinction away, he just ends up demonstratingthat he considers her the former rather than the latter.

If whore was a neutral descriptor, there would be no need for the distinction.

In fact, that entire episode idea is built on the assumption that Mal's use of the words is meant as offensive.

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She makes clear that she doesn’t consider the word whore derogatory, he makes clear that he does not consider it derogatory, so if neither of them thinks of it that way where is the disrespect?

I simply do believe that he means to be derrogatory when using the word on her. And that Inara regards it as offensive when applied to her. Because she is not a whore, in h

BELACGOD

Thursday, November 24, 2005 5:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Simon is awkward as hell. He can just barely summon the words to calm down River, and he's her brother. Medically, he's great, but interpersonally... not so much.

Simon's only awkward outside of his field. In the infirmary, or the hospital on Ariel, he's as confident as Mal. I suspect if Simon found himself guarding a Reaved woman's door he'd be perfectly at home resisting all attempts to do anything that would damage her condition.

That said, Zoe is more likely to do the guarding.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Thursday, November 24, 2005 9:35 PM

I’m going to stop this, we obviously see it very differently intereptreting exactly the same things in different ways is not going to make progress. However I would like to say two things:

The first is that when I say something I mean it. I said that she mentioned pretence in the original cut, and I meant the original cut. He exact words were, “He dislikes pretension.” When I mentioned that exact same scene again it was still in the original cut, as you have pointed out there is not possible reason to believe that I had switched to the final cut because pretension is not mentioned in it.

If you wanted to argue that the original cut doesn’t apply that would have been fine.
It is certainly a valid argument. However when you completely ignored what I actually said that was rude.

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The second is that words are not absolute, I once knew two friends who referred to one another as nigger and cracker. In that particular situation between those specific people those words, highly negative connotations and all, were non-derogatory.

What is in a dictionary or the public mind today may not apply later. I thought it was made clear that it didn't apply by Inara’s reference of Nandi as a whore and Mal’s placing whoring equal to thieving (the present connotation of whore is much more negative than thief.)

I may be completely wrong, but I still think you are in error assuming that a word will always have the exact meanings that you personally associate with it.

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, November 24, 2005 10:01 PM

You are right, we see things very very differently.

I wasn't aware that an original cut of the scene existed, nor did you specify that you were referring to a version other than the one that aired. I don't see how I was rude in not knowing you were referring to something other than the aired version?

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I may be completely wrong, but I still think you are in error assuming that a word will always have the exact meanings that you personally associate with it.

It is not about me personally. I was referring to the many levels of meaning associated with the word "whore" and the fact that more than one level is at play in the show between Mal and Inara.

Let's agree to disagree.

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