More/Latest Torture News--From the CIA's secret prisons

POSTED BY: R1Z
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 2, 2025 07:01
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R1Z

Thursday, November 3, 2005 10:04 PM

More (not-so) breathless reporting:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/03/AR2005
110300422_pf.html

excerpt:

Quote:
Rep. John P. Murtha (Pa.), ranking Democrat on the Appropriations defense subcommittee, urged the United States to adopt a doctrine of "no torture, no excuses," and said Congress needs to speak on the issue. "The United States of America and the values we reflect abhor human rights violators and uphold human rights," Murtha said in a statement.

Quote:
"no torture, no excuses"

I like it. Short, catchy. It could be printed on key chains that could be passed out. Or T-shirts. Or little stickers that could be pasted above light switches.

Seriously, My God in Heaven, how did we ever get to the point where we're debating if an official agency of the U.S. government should be ALLOWED by law to contravene the letter and the spirit of the Geneva Conventions!?!?!?

I was raised to believe that we were the "Good Guys" in white hats who didn't do such things, because they were wrong. Just flat out wrong.

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

AURAPTOR

Thursday, November 3, 2005 10:25 PM

Quote:
* No torture, no excuses *

I like it. Short, catchy. It could be printed on key chains that could be passed out. Or T-shirts. Or little stickers that could be pasted above light switches.

Seriously, My God in Heaven, how did we ever get to the point where we're debating if an official agency of the U.S. government should be ALLOWED by law to contravene the letter and the spirit of the Geneva Conventions!?!?!?

I was raised to believe that we were the "Good Guys" in white hats who didn't do such things, because they were wrong. Just flat out wrong.

No, flat out RIGHT. We ARE the good guys, but we also realize that there's a real world out there which doesn't play by the rules. The apoplectic response by some that the U.S. officially condones torture is nothing short of al Jizzerah spin.( or Air America/moveon.org....who can tell the differnce? ) As witness, any excessive CRAP that a few over zealous thugs in the military dished out was met with medals..no,(kidding) sorry. Has been met with investigations and PUNISHMENT for those convicted of wrong doing. These weren't media driven investigations, but done by our own military. Good Guys.

Also, this touchy feely, Seasame Street slogan of the day is prue nonsense. No torture, no excuses ? PLEASE! Expect that to be the slogan some terrorist start singing as they saw off the head of yet another infidel they happen to kidnap. If the diaper heads want to join a standing army of a recognized State, don a regular uniform , THEN they can expect Geneva Convention type treatment.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CHRISISALL

Friday, November 4, 2005 1:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

We more than anyone deserve to give it to 'em, Chris.

*referring to photo above*
Okay, a very emotional picture. It brings up rage for me, too.
But that's only half the story. They weren't geniuses who plotted or executed this. And those who should've seen it coming weren't either. Difference is, the dudes that did the terrorism had FOCUS, and our leaders were busy making the word safe for OCP!
And BTW, I have NO problem whatsoever waxing the people behind 911, problem is that they're hard to locate, and the $'s behind it point to our pals, the Saudis, but we have to whack someone, so we throw a dart at a Middle Eastern map. That's not only wrong, it's stupid.
Pretty soon, the dead men and women of the armed services will outnumber the people lost in New York's Twin Towers, that seem right to you?

I would have sent in hit teams to off those terrorist deviants.
I know, that's against the Geneva Convention, and we can't go doing something against that, right?

Yeah, and maybe I'm a Chinese jet pilot.

Chrisisall, ending his not-so-funny rant

CHRISISALL

Friday, November 4, 2005 1:15 AM

I just re-read my post, and it might sound like I'm directing my anger at you, AURaptor, and I don't mean to. I'm angry with the situation, savy?

Chrisisall

DREAMTROVE

Friday, November 4, 2005 2:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AURAPTOR:

No, flat out RIGHT. We ARE the good guys, but we also realize that there's a real world out there which doesn't play by the rules. The apoplectic response by some that the U.S. officially condones torture is nothing short of al Jizzerah spin.( or Air America/moveon.org....who can tell the differnce? ) As witness, any excessive CRAP that a few over zealous thugs in the military dished out was met with medals..no,(kidding) sorry. Has been met with investigations and PUNISHMENT for those convicted of wrong doing. These weren't media driven investigations, but done by our own military. Good Guys.

Also, this touchy feely, Seasame Street slogan of the day is prue nonsense. No torture, no excuses ? PLEASE! Expect that to be the slogan some terrorist start singing as they saw off the head of yet another infidel they happen to kidnap. If the diaper heads want to join a standing army of a recognized State, don a regular uniform , THEN they can expect Geneva Convention type treatment.

WHOA!

Slow down there. No. Come to a screening halt.

Sorry I just love that line :)

Okay, but seriously, I gotta slam this post Auraptor.

The fact that we have rules of moral conduct that we live by, even when our enemy chooses not to, is not our weakness, it is our strenth.

I can't think of a more conservative sentiment :)

One of the great things about being a wingnut, is that your values are already well stated, defined is stuff to live by, and any new situation is pretty easy to adapt to, and see what fits. To us, the conservatives are those who live by those principles.

Unlike people who might follow, say, the GOP leadership, or for that matter the DNC, which ever way they might turn.

Classic conservative lines are easy to apply, and those who don't live by them are no conservatives in my book. George W. Bush is no kind of conservative at all.

I don't feel this point even requires an argument. It's already been made.

DREAMTROVE

Friday, November 4, 2005 2:43 AM

Quote:

I would have sent in hit teams to off those terrorist deviants.

Three cheers to this.

Actually, if the CIA catches them, and takes them to its secret detainment center, and does not torture them, then it can determine if their fit to stand trial, and if there is a reasonable case against them, and then they can stand trial, and be found unbelievably guilty. If the trial is in New York, they'll go to prison for life. If the trial is in saudi arabia, they will be decapitated by a guy with a sword.

CHRISISALL

Friday, November 4, 2005 3:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:

I would have sent in hit teams to off those terrorist deviants.

Three cheers to this.

I know that idea is not a popular one with some of my more left leaning colleagues here, but isn't war just a bigger, clumsier version of the same thing? Given that we were gonna do SOMETHING, I would have opted for a more surgical strike at the correct targets.

Just my two scheckles Chrisisall

DREAMTROVE

Friday, November 4, 2005 4:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisisall

I know that idea is not a popular one with some of my more left leaning colleagues here, but isn't war just a bigger, clumsier version of the same thing? Given that we were gonna do SOMETHING, I would have opted for a more surgical strike at the correct target

Chris,

I have a rule I call the rule of least death. When considering a military action, take the course of least death.
If you have multiple effective options, take the one which is effective but causes least death. If your best least death kills more people than not fighting and leaving the dictator in power, then you are maximum death. If you have decent options and do nothing, you are maximum death again. Generally, these should only be considered for widespread genocide like in Darfur.

Rates of random civilian slaughter for a dictator may vary, but it's all going to average out in the end, so you start with what you have.

Saddam Hussein killed a million people. (anyone who doubts this is forgetting that he invaded Iran)

he was in power for almost 25 years.

40,000 people a year is the cost of a Saddam Hussein in power, as a means of his staying there.

This means he's less dangerous to the world than a George W. Bush or a Bill Clinton, but he's still a f^&ker and needs to go.

The question is, how to get rid of him. If your solution costs more lives, then clearly you need a better one.

Further questions will present themselves about whether a combat should be fought at all. The cost in human lives of Hugo Chavez in power in Venezuela? None as far as I can tell. Okay, let's not go to war with him. If we don't like him in power we have many ways to get rid of him. Fund an opposition candidate in a democratic election. Why we could do that in Iran, also. Another govt. that like Syria, is not killing large numbers of people.

Here's a quick rundown of Clinton wars on the minimum death system

Rwanda. Should've gone. Didn't go. Shame on Clinton, he opted for maximum death.
Somalia. Didn't need to go. Went. Maximum death.
Iraq. something probably needed to be done but Clinton killed more people per year by a factor of five than did Hussein himself, and yet the Clinton campaigns accomplished nothing. Maximum death.
Yugoslavia. Should have gone. Didn't go. Went kind of token right at the end, but too late. Maximum death.
Serbia/Kosovo. Not Clear. This may have been a minimum death war, but it's not clear. Human displacement can't be equated to human life lost, and Clinton could have transfered middle east forces and had a more minimum death, but I'll concede this one for the sake of the argument. I still was not happy with the war and the way it was conducted, but it was hard to lose the minimum death battle against Milosevic, since he was a serious maximum death contender, taking out 100,000+ of his own citizens per year.
Haiti, Clinton fought a war in Haiti that I know so little about I don't know what was the maximum death angle, if no one has anything to share I will have to take clinton at his word that this was minimum death.

Still and all, a pretty bad record. A million dead. More or less. Bush is envious. He's probably up around 1/4 million right now, but when he launches pre-emptive nukes against Iran, he'll be able to push Clinton out of the running. It is sad that after ending the 20th century, by far the bloodiest in human history, to begin the 21st with a bloody and pointless war.

Now another issue we have to address is relative value of human life. Is a Darfur peasant equal to an American GI? A lot of people instinctively said yes, and others jsut as instinctively said no. I don't think we will ever have a way to measure this, but I think that it's important to realize that people are already thinking like this, and as soon as they do, they start making an American GI worth an infinite number of Darfur peasants. Strangely enough I have a very odd but sensible solution. We settle this by avoiding the quesiton. We arrange our army as a proxy force. Totally rest

AURAPTOR

Friday, November 4, 2005 5:02 AM

Quote:
Pretty soon, the dead men and women of the armed services will outnumber the people lost in New York's Twin Towers, that seem right to you?

Dead from Pearl Harbor attack, Dec 7. 1941: 2,404

Dead from World War 2: 300,000+ (Military)

I don't care to play the numbers game, as it's irrelevent when trying to fight a war. Ask any military expert, it does nothing but detract from the goal when numbers get tossed around like that. Sounds cold, cruel and such, but that's how wars are won.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

DREAMTROVE

Friday, November 4, 2005 5:48 AM

Since you mentioned wwii, war with Japan fails the minimum death test easily, war with germany is the same category as clinton's war in yugoslavia, to late to be affective, but minimum death is fighting the war with germany, if started earlier, say in the late 30s, after germany had invaded czechoslovakia, austria and poland.

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