Loved Firefly, but Serenity *sucked* (SPOLIERS)
POSTED BY: Jusl89
UPDATED: Friday, December 16, 2005 22:26
VIEWED: 39034
PAGE 10 of 12
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
The part I will never understand isn't the deaths of Book and Wash so much as their timing - in the first movie??!! It's the triumphant return from being gone and buried for 3 years and you're gonna start killing characters??
I think you have to look at it from Joss' perspective: he's already had these characters and their story taken away from him once before. Do you really think he wants to rely on the hope that there may be sequels in order to get his story told? Or do you think he'd seize the chance and put the most important parts of the story that he wanted to tell in one film, just in case?
And, let's face it, "the story he wanted to tell" is the most important part here. Everyone has the right to dislike (or even hate) the film that Whedon and crew have given us, but in the end it is Joss' story, and he has to do what he feels is right. He's not our performing monkey. We can't tell him what he should or shouldn't do.
To quote the man himself, from the Visual Companion:
"You know, my original intent was that you never leave a man behind. Or woman. Dramatically, the more I worked on the screenplay, the more it became clear that in order to make people feel that this was real, a certain shocking thing is going to have to happen. [...] When you have an ensemble, you think about what people are going to take away with them at the end of the movie, and you don't think about the second movie until you've made the first one. [...] And you have to up the stakes, you have to make it real, you have to make it matter, and you cannot let your hope for a sequel guide what you're going to do in a movie, because it will lessen the chance that there will be one."
Also:
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
. . .quote Joss as saying that he intended all that to happen during seasons 4 thru 8 and call it brilliant, mind-blowing, best movie ever. . .
. . .snarky much? Don't forget the wise teachings of Buckaroo Banzai that are emblazoned at the end of your posts. . .
------------------
"Remember, there's a big difference between kneeling down and bending over."
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
In another thread, I mentioned Batman Begins as a highly successful, cerebral, character driven action movie that made big, big bucks. To say that Joss had to make a popcorn movie just ain't so.
i don't think it's fair to compare Serenity to Batman Begins at all. Batman is a brand name - it's recognized and it's been around for a long time. it's audience is huge - just the excitment it generated before it's release is a testament to this. Firefly was a project that had it's feet loped off before it even got to crawl. i didn't see mcdonalds clammering to put Mal or Wash on their products.
i did leave the theater feeling a little disappointed. i think the first thing i said was "there wasn't much Joss Whedon in that". sure, it had his trademark kill a main character thing but the feel was certainly different. i had hoped for something a bit more like the series but i can't claim to understand how that crazy industry works. i have the utmost faith in Joss Whedon as an artist - he has yet to totally disappoint me. he is my god and the supreme ruler of all things awesome. so - i'm gonna assume he did what he did for a reason. if he had to change the flavour to get the movie out there (or if universal made demands after the project had already started)then so be it - it wouldn't have been the first time.
think back to the original Buffy the Vampire Slayer movie. (ya know - that travesty with Luke Perry) it was a shame and no one took it seriously but see what a deeply moving and all around awesome show the series became?
point is - big wigs and guys with the cash $ have always been a pain in the ass for artists everywhere.
i mean to say
-Simon
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:
Oh, and it wasn't 8 monthes between the show and the movie - it was closer to 2.
-Steve
actually i read somewhere that the movie takes place 6 months after Objects in Space.
outta curiosity - has anyone read the comics? they are supposed to bridge the gap between series and movie.
i mean to say
-Simon
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HK, I know you’re a bit sick of people responding to your posts on this topic, but I’ve got a few things to say about this one (and Pizmobeach’s). Might prove interesting to you.
If you go back through Whedon interviews before the film, when asked about sequels he always talks about wanting to get the first movie right because if it fails there won’t be any sequels. This was also Whedon’s approach to television. The first season of “Buffy,” Whedon felt they might not survive beyond a single season, so he focused all his efforts on telling a contained story within that first season so that if the show ended the story would be finished (as he’s mentioned a few times, he hates stories that are left unfinished). But while the first season was a self-contained story, Whedon also left a few threads dangling so if they beat the odds and came back next year, he’d have more story to tell.
Obviously, they did beat the odds, but they were still a bit shaky and Whedon decided that this system was a good idea. So from then on he always tried to write every season as if it were the last, while leaving a few threads unfinished for future stories if they got picked up for another year. Thus, every season could both stand alone and serve as a part of a grander cohesive whole. He used this again over on “Angel,” where it unfortunately proved useful when “Angel” was abruptly cancelled in its fifth year--the awesome (IMHO) series finale was virtually unchanged from the planned season finale. I’ve no doubt Whedon was going to use this same tactic on “Firefly,” especially given FOX’s bunglings. Had “Firefly” played out for a full season, it would’ve told a complete story, while laying the groundwork for a possible second season. The first season of “Firefly” was written as if it were the last, but FOX didn’t even let it get to the season finale which would have tied things together.
What I’m getting at here is that Whedon never assumes success, so I’ve no doubt he wrote the Big Damn Movie as if it were the Last Damn Movie. It’s not pulling punches for a trilogy since there’s a fair chance we won’t get one. At the same time, Whedon left threads for future movies--we don’t know the full effect Mal’s transmission will have on the Alliance, we don’t know Inara’s secret, we don’t know whether Mal and Inara will get together, whether Kaylee and Simon will stay together, and I’ve heard that Whedon also wants to (somehow) unravel Book’s past. But at the same time, two of the central arcs of the series--River’s storyline and Mal’s regaining some kind of belief--were answered and the film can stand alone.
So, Whedon wrote the film knowing full well that he might not be able to write more. That’s one reason why Book and Wash died in this one instead of a sequel--because there might not be sequels. Rather than holding out for a future that might not happen, Whedon tried to tell as much as could in this first installment. Some things were left out deliberately, others due to time constraints, and Whedon no doubt wants to write about them, too. But he also feels that his stories need to be able to stand on their own as well as fit into a greater whole. Going into this, Joss didn’t want to disappoint the fans and one thing that would’ve disappointed everyone is if he wrote “Serenity, Part I” and it failed, leaving the fans hanging in the middle of the story.
He’s obviously disappointed you, HK, and I’m sorry that’s happened. All I’m saying here is that Joss knew going in that there might well be no more installments and that shaped his writing. He had to focus on just a few core storylines to tell a complete story in one film, and much was left out that he’s no doubt itching to explore. We may never know everything, but having seen Joss’s other work, I doubt he ever wanted to tell us everything. A few mysteries, a few unanswered questions make it all the more interesting IMHO--just look at all the fun we’ve had speculating over the past few years!
EDITED TO ADD: Great, I sit down to write this long thing and I find tha
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Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
Yes. Of course, other writers work on his series too. I'd like to be a fly on the wall for the discussions -- "No, you can't have River doing that, because..."Or maybe, "You can't have River doing that, but I can't tell you why. Or I'd have to kill you."
I'm thinking of a scene (I think it's from Ariel) where she starts babbling about it being Christmas but they've taken the toys away, and left nothing but coal. It makes some sense for that scene alone, but takes on another whole layer now that we know the underlying cause of her madness. Maybe the stress of that moment has lowered her defenses and some images of Miranda are leaking through. Coal indeed!
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Ain't about you, Jayne. It's about what they need.
I'd like to be a fly on the wall for Shakespeare readings as well.
I went to find the bit below about the engine part to be sure I was remembering it just right, so I thought I'd take a sec to find the quote you're referencing, and it's even creeeepier.
"They took Christmas away. Came down the stairs for the shiny presents. They took the tree and the stockings. Nothing left but coal. Don't look in the closet either, it's greedy. It's not in the spirit of the holiday."
Holy Oak Massachusetts Rocky, that will give me nightmares.
Yeah, I'm going to go back and rewatch FF soon. Joss is always talking back and forth across the timeline. I watched an Angel season 2 episode tonight with friends ('Darla' was the title if I remember right), and there are tons of Angelis/Darla/Spike & Dru flashback scenes in it that were in various Buffy eps, told from different perspectives from how I'd originaly seen them. I do wish I had been there to see all 3 shows broadcast. There are things I'll always miss cause I didn't see how the shows played off one another [insert chamber music reference]. Anyway, I'll bet there's a lot of that in FF that I'm just not remembering. Then we'll all have more ideas to post about too!
Ok, example from Ariel about reflections across the timeline. One of my favorite bits from the show, too. When Wash and Kaylee are looking in the junkyard for the ambulance and Wash finds the part they needed in Out of Gas lying on the ground. He hefts it, wings it...and it hits an ambulance. In the movie's 'How's a guy get so wrong' scene when Jayne is dropping the parts from the reaver ship, Kaylee picks up that same part, and starts breaking it down. Love it, love it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Ah, that's what I was thinking of, and I thought what he said was eighteen months...
means the time scales shorter than what I said, but still longer than 2 months...
Wasn't the show over a span of six months? That was my understanding...I know it was near a month between Shindig and Safe alone...
Yep, that's my understanding...
18 - 6 = 12 so I'd say it's about a year between film and series...
At least my recollection is that Mal said 18 months. I could be wrong...
Quote:
Originally posted by TunaBelly:
actually i read somewhere that the movie takes place 6 months after Objects in Space.
I'd heard something not too dissimilar.
Quote:
outta curiosity - has anyone read the comics? they are supposed to bridge the gap between series and movie.
Yes. It involves the Blue Hands and how the Operative got on the case...
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Even though I might, even though I try,
I can't
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Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
I'd like to be a fly on the wall for the discussions -- "No, you can't have River doing that, because..."Or maybe, "You can't have River doing that, but I can't tell you why. Or I'd have to kill you."
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Ain't about you, Jayne. It's about what they need.
Verbification of a Noun!
Book thing, Novelization.
Feeling pretty stupid now, I mean I -assume- it is sanctioned by the powers of Joss. He does know it's out there, and the author did speak with him, yes? I suppose it would drive him to more than lettuce in the basement if he thought someone ruint his story, so yes he must have had some hand in it.
Here I've been, going off on the 800 tangents of speculation vector.
Soupguy mentioned it a couple of weeks ago, and I didn't find it right away. Last night I cracked it open, and by page 55 I can see that there will be much exposition for the hardcore, and the putting to bed of speculation about many things.
I can't not read it, but rats. It's more fun figuring out my own interp. On the other hand, boring the natives here. Not a good idea.
Flouncing off to read and ruminate, but not to hook up at the mall.
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There are so many things I would like to argue! But doing so would take up a HUGE amount of time, space, and words, none of which will proabably convince you. I know that if I am really into something--be it a side of an argument, a show 
, or the like-- and think one thing with a strong passion, nothing will sway me from my ideas, my thoughts, my side.
I will say one thing though, that I don't really want to. I think that it's a sci-fi action movie is because, action sells. Yes, Joss does things for himself, and told the story because he needed to get it down, but let's face it, contemplation movies don't sell. I would love to believe that he did it JUST for the whole "I love this show and need it to go on," which is part of why he did it I think, he also knew that if he were to make Serenity like Firefly, in the contemplation way, in wouldn't sell in the mainstream.
And as for Wash's death...don't even get me started! I loved him, and as much as I do, his death WAS for a reason, it DID have a purpose and should not be so played down.
Just my thoughts.
Cheers,
~ForeverShiny~
~~~~~~~~~~~
Can't stop the signal!
"No, Cap'n, I think it's shiny!"--Kaylee, o'course.
"Yeah, but she's our witch, so cut her the hell down." --Mal in "Safe."
"Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off as sure as the turning of worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughtta fall down, tells ya she's hurtin' 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." --Mal in "Serenity" My all-time fav quote. Love it!
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I apologize if this has been said, I scanned the thread, but didn't read 100%.
I loved Serenity, and thought it held pretty true. Yes, I still can't seem to get over Wash's death, because I connected with him so much, but it had so many other meanings. He was part of the main comic relief and more importantly, he brought out Zoe's feminity. Yes, I'll miss "mmm...wife soup..." but this is a real chance for her character to take some turns. Its especially depressing because they had talked about children and family and all that stuff. Also from the writing aspect (and in terms of realism), I thought his death was perfect. No "10-minute-long-Neo-Trinity-death-scene-of-doom" ...he's impaled, he's dead.
But the most important part of him dying, was that it did something most films can't get across. When he died, it opened the door for the possibility of anyone and/or everyone dying. After that, Mal could've died, Jayne, Kaylee, etc. From a screenwriting standpoint, I feel it did it's job extra-well. Personally I would've killed off the doctor so that Mal could explore the "fatherly" figure that slightly peeks at the end of the film, but then you run into problems with the Kaylee factor and, its just too much.
As for Shepherd Book, I think *that* (his death) was especially needed because it shows the other side of Mal's character. The one that he covers up with the one that drives people who care about him away. I mean those lines whe he dies, its gut-wrenching, heartfelt and yet still subtily comedic.
Those are just my thoughts, yeah it sucked to lose someone and then a second, but I don't think we've seen the last of his character.
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Quote:
Just a note about Jayne. I think Jayne made a decision to follow Mal after Ariel. That convinced him Mal was worthy of his loyalty. And by asking him not to tell the others he gave away his feeling of family for them all. Jayne was as roped in as the rest of them to the destiny they all shared on this mission.
yeah, that. what they said.
no really, i totally agree with this. jayne changes after ariel, not a lot, but a little. none of the other characters are static in their development, and neither is jayne.
http://violetrix.blogspot.com
the arithmetic of absence
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