Loved Firefly, but Serenity *sucked* (SPOLIERS)
POSTED BY: Jusl89
UPDATED: Friday, December 16, 2005 22:26
VIEWED: 39034
PAGE 5 of 12
I agree with you Jynk about "quiet reflection", I loved the movie and wouldn't/couldn't say anything against Joss.
I went back and watched the last three episodes and realized you were right about Book and Jayne, they got pretty close. So Jayne was certainly motivated by Book's death.
I've ordered the novel version and am awaiting it with bated breath! Can't wait to read it.
FollowMal
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Random thoughts:
Gawd I miss Firefly.
My friend summed it up perfectly. "Serenity was a pretty good movie, but a sorry follow up the best science fiction series ever."
HK has covered my point of view perfectly, as he usually does.
I had hopes that Serenity might be able to re-spark the Firefly magic, but instead it's just reinforced my perception of how much we've lost.
Gawd I miss Firefly.
I should have seen it coming. I saw it coming. But hope took over. I'd like to say I'm not surprised, but I really thought Joss could pull it off. Perhaps everything is destined to be swallowed up by mainstream mediocrity, but it sure hurts to see it happen sometimes.
Gawd I miss Firefly.
EVERYONE HERE WHO DIDN'T LIVE THROUGH THE CANCELLATION NEEDS TO READ THE FOLLOWING:
http://www.keithmpire.com/nonfiction/firefly/
I remember weeping the first time I read this, swearing to myself the pronouncement was premature. But Firefly wasn't the action-packed mediocrity that mainstream America craves. Its destiny was pre-ordained.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Frankly, your opinion sucks, Serenity DID happen, and it did NOT suck.
How do you like them apples?
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Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I should have seen it coming. I saw it coming. But hope took over. I'd like to say I'm not surprised, but I really thought Joss could pull it off. Perhaps everything is destined to be swallowed up by mainstream mediocrity, but it sure hurts to see it happen sometimes.
Here's the thing to everyone expressing views like this: this is your opinion. In my book, Serenity was an immensely awesome movie; my favorite, in fact, of all time (biased slightly, of course, by its affiliation to my favorite show). I went in to the theaters with high expectations; I left satisfied, though shocked by the two deaths. I had a much lower opinion of the movie at that point than I do now; I urge you all to see it again, if you haven't. The second time, I enjoyed it much more.
I loved this movie. So if you wanna say you didn't like it, that's fine; to say that it sucked, though, or even was mediocre, that's okay too, I guess - just remember that there's many millions of people who disagree with you.
-Steve
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:
I loved this movie. So if you wanna say you didn't like it, that's fine; to say that it sucked, though, or even was mediocre, that's okay too, I guess - just remember that there's many millions of people who disagree with you.
-Steve
Fair enough. I can't say it 'sucked'. In fact it was better than most big-budget Hollywood action movies. But here's the deal -
Firefly was a very unique and special experience. It called out to those of us fed up with the usual mediocrity. Speaking personally, it helped reassure me that there are others out there who appreciate real art. Firefly told stories that respected the intelligence and maturity of its audience. It challenged convention and showed that there could be something to a science fiction series besides monster aliens and starship battles.
It hurts to see it swallowed up and regurgitated into just another action movie.
My hope is that Joss can look back at the series and realize that the very reasons it 'failed' financially were the ones that made it such a spectacular success artistically. My guess is, he already knows this. Perhaps he hoped he could make a big hollywood action movie that would be successful enough to save the franchise. Maybe the plan was to get buy-in and then revert to some decent storytelling. I'm certainly hoping that still happens.
But the problem is, you can't have it both ways. There's still enough of Firefly in Serenity to make it unpallateable to the Ahnold fans, but not enough moving art to save it for those who found the series such a unique jewel.
Most of the people I've befriended amongst the Browncoats watch very little TV. For us, its generally a waste of time. It doesn't entertain us and it doesn't represent us. Firefly did both. I can't help but feel that Serenity has left us behind in its attempt to reach the mainstream movie crowd. That sucks because those folks have their entertainment already.
In the past, Joss has taken care of the rest of us. I hope he'll get back to doing that soon.
EDIT: to add, I've seen the movie three times now, and while I did find a few more things to like about it, it still just doesn't hold my attention the way the series did.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:
I went in to the theaters with high expectations; I left satisfied, though shocked by the two deaths. I had a much lower opinion of the movie at that point than I do now; I urge you all to see it again, if you haven't. The second time, I enjoyed it much more.
-Steve
Saw it twice Steve, did not get any better for me the second time around.
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Thought I’d address one of HK’s points. I never got around to responding to his nig post in one of the other threads, but he’s making some of the same arguments here so I’ll try and address them.
Quote:First off, you seem to be stating opinion as fact, which tends to get folks with differing opinions riled up. Might want to look to that; these discussions can get pretty ugly when tempers flare.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The huge problem with the "increase in tention" caused by Wash's death is that even the people who defend Joss's decision were taken out of the story by that event! Everyone is suddenly thrust into a meta-narrative of WWJD (what would Joss do?). We're not thinking about how our BDH's are going to deal with a specific problem in the story, we're thinking about how they're gonna deal with Joss Almighty. Aesthetically, killing Wash is nothing but a power trip, and only those of us who are obsessed with Joss's power (the hardcore fans) care. If he told a better story we'd all be thinking about what's happening to the characters in character terms, not hardcore fan terms. It's a huge error in judgement and a betrayal of the powerful sense of reality the show so effortlessly gave us week after week.
Now, the meta-narrative. I’m sorry you were taken out of the story by Wash’s death. I was not thrust into a “WWJD” mindset when I saw that, so you do not speak for me. I was not thinking “Will Joss actually kill them off?” after Wash’s death, I was thinking “Jesus! This is serious! They might not make it.” Joss was nowhere in my thought processes at that moment, just fear, adrenaline and a deep identification with the characters. In retrospect I am able to recognize the device that caused me to feel those emotions, but at the time I was not thinking “Wow, Whedon’s decision to kill of Wash has really heightened the tension in the final section of the movie.” If you were, I am sorry for you. But the goal of any film technique is to be invisible, to keep the audience from pausing to analyze it. Just because someone brings it up after the fact does not mean that they were pulled into some kind of meta-narrative state by the technique, it just means that they can recognize after the fact that such a technique was used and thus understand their response better.
I would also argue that such a technique actually brings us closer to the characters rather than jarring them out of a story. In television, you now that the cast is going to be back next week--it creates a sense of distance between you and the characters. Captain Picard may feel his life is in danger, but we all know he’ll be back on the Enterprise next week, so our emotions do not match those of the characters. Something similar happens in formula action movies; all the heroes usually survive while maybe a few sympathetic second tier characters get it. With Serenity, the Browncoats go in with the emotional distance of the TV show and the regular audiences go in with the emotional distance of formula action. Joss has always felt that distance between the characters and the audience is bad; when he puts people in danger, he wants you to feel they’re in danger (the characters certainly don’t know they’ll be back next week or in the next film), he wants you to feel what they’re going through. That is realism, emotional realism. And after Wash got it, I was right there with the characters: terrified, excited, saddened, totally unsure of what would happen next. For me, just like for them, the outcome was totally up in the air. I wasn’t worrying about Joss, Joss didn’t even exist for me any more. I was worried about Mal, and Jayne, and Zoe, and Simon, and Inara, and Kaylee, and River--just like they were. So, don’t tell me that Wash’s death distanced me from these characters, that it took me out of the story--because it sucked me in more. It removed the last bit of emotional distance between me and them and for that short while I was right there with them. Didn’t work
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Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Random thoughts:
Gawd I miss Firefly.
My friend summed it up perfectly. "Serenity was a pretty good movie, but a sorry follow up the best science fiction series ever."
HK has covered my point of view perfectly, as he usually does.
I had hopes that Serenity might be able to re-spark the Firefly magic, but instead it's just reinforced my perception of how much we've lost.
Gawd I miss Firefly.
I should have seen it coming. I saw it coming. But hope took over. I'd like to say I'm not surprised, but I really thought Joss could pull it off. Perhaps everything is destined to be swallowed up by mainstream mediocrity, but it sure hurts to see it happen sometimes.
Gawd I miss Firefly.
EVERYONE HERE WHO DIDN'T LIVE THROUGH THE CANCELLATION NEEDS TO READ THE FOLLOWING:
http://www.keithmpire.com/nonfiction/firefly/
I remember weeping the first time I read this, swearing to myself the pronouncement was premature. But Firefly wasn't the action-packed mediocrity that mainstream America craves. Its destiny was pre-ordained.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
I lived through the cancellation, I got a Tivo box specifically to record Firefly on Friday nights, I loved the show, I kept eps on my Tivo until the dvd came out, and I've arrived at a completely different conclusion.
I'm fairly certain no movie that had any reasonable chance of being made would have kept you happy. The medium is different, you can't tell the stories in a movie the same as with a tv series. A movie (particularly the first of hopefully many sequels) has to be self contained and explain itself. A tv show can let big question marks hang in an episode, knowing that they'll be back the following week (or year) to explain them. A tv show has the time to explore in depth each character in a 9 person cast.
That might mean the world of Firefly is dead to you unless it comes in the episodic format of tv. My enjoyment of the show and the movie is broader than that, I can recognize the differences and the similarities and glory in both.
If you think Serenity is just another action movie look again. It twists many of the conventions of an action movie just like Firefly twisted the conventions of tv. It has all the same emotional elements, love, humor, surprise, terror, anguish, action and others. The balance is different, but the quality isn't.
If Firefly is dead, long may its child live.
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Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:
1. Totally agree with you on this one, Grounded. There is nothing artificial about the increase in tension. But if the only reason for Wash's death was to increase tension, i would have been very dissappointed with Joss. There was another reason for Wash's death however - Wash died because sometimes people die for no reason. It amplified the reality of the situation and was probably setting things in motion for the next movie. That doesn't mean i like it. On the contrary, i was crushed when i saw Wash speared. And I'd still like to see Wash come back in the next movie - not anything corny, mind you, but something good.
I'd suggest watching the movie again, Jusl89. I was vastly shocked, disappointed, sad, and mad with the movie the first time I saw it, but the next time, I wasn't jolted out of it so much when Wash died and enjoyed the great ending of the movie.
If anyone would like more info and discussion on Wash's death, click on this link: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13372
Engine - thanks so much for your thoughts, and for the link to a really good Wash thread. I have been avoiding the 'hated it' threads since the first couple days when I got into a couple of poisonous threads and I just wasn't interested in any negative opinions at that point.
I just went to read the Wash thread, and realized you were all there, in a good way: Tinman, Biglion, Scarecrow, Dorothy, funnycoloredhorse, all you people whose opinions I really look forward to reading. Anyway. Thanks for the link, bigfloatingballonangel.
Also! Thanks for the line Book burbles at the (his) end "Do whatever River says" dang, I have been trying hard to hear that one. Thanks.
I also suggest as strongly as possible without actually
shouting
that anyone who didn't like it the first time go see it again, and bring people who aren't already fans. My appreciation has been greatly enhanced by viewings with non-coats (actually that should be newcoats, because they are all Brownies now!) Seeing the fire of passion ignite in a newbie's eyes is a uniquely wonderful thing.
Along that same line of thought (bringing newbies) It's easy for us to lose perspective on all of this when we love FF so much and most of us waited a long time for the BDresurrection. That gives a fan plenty of time to make stuff up in her/is own head about what they'd like to see happen. Serious danger zone, that.
Just when this thread was getting a little intense
Idrawart and Spike&jezebel hijak it for some animated comic relief.
Then Spike&Jez, Dream t, DonC, Tortimer and, have I missed anyone?
hijack it somemore for a little OBL/CIA/911 rant (and no one mentioned Carl Rove?), which isn't really a hijack, since there are some pretty strong parallels, echos and reflections between the two empires. By the way, I -totally- agree with DonC's "progressive failure" asessment of the towers' tumbles. That was one bloody hot 500 mph fireball.
Idrawart (on Mal trusting Jayne)- did you notice the line Jayne had in the millionth argument about the Tam's continued presence (in the crew lounge) where Jayne quietly says "No reward, huh?" Cracks me up every time.
SergeantX, thanks for the link to the original fan's lament and musings on cancellation. Beaut. He writes:
"It's a whole lot easier to keep your eyes steady on the horizon when you know there's somebody else seeing that same horizon with you."
Yes, indeed and so say all of us. Hopefully, the author's here somewhere, with horizons vasty and sunsets glorious.
Beauty beauty, great thread, guys!
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