Loved Firefly, but Serenity *sucked* (SPOLIERS)
POSTED BY: Jusl89
UPDATED: Friday, December 16, 2005 22:26
VIEWED: 39034
PAGE 3 of 12
I see your points and raise a few....
I believe that Mal did not kill the operative , because that would have killed what was left of his crew. He had a mission he was on and was willing to die for it. ( I do agree that the final secret could have been better, but now we know what the Reavers are and how they came to be) Also in the end it would have been suicide to kill the Operative cause frankly, they were surrounded but good and in need of a lot of medical help. wait to bite the hand that's feedin' ya till your in a better situation, and you can get away.
I too am upset at Books death as I REALLY wanted to dig into his past, but I guess that still can be done.
I thought the dynamics of the original 9 were perfect, and that included the marriage of Wash/ Zoe and the older wiser preacher. This will give opportunity to bring in a big name for part 2. We fans don't need a name but I've read reviews that state if might have helped get newbies in.
I also heard that Wash's death made the audience realize that anyone could go. I personally would not have killed him off but I've also heard that Alan (who plays Wash) had commitments and couldn't be in part 2-3.
As far as Capt'n not trusting Jayne, he had to put that behind him, he hired him knowing full well what he was and that he has no loyality, but you always can hope someone will change. I for pne feel that Jayne did see the light. He's got to realize that his crew cares for him and I think he's starting to care for them. He's warming up. Cappy has to trust him. deal with the consequences as they happen. kinda like letting your kids drive off in your car , not only the first time, but for the first months.you just gotta cross your fingers and go about your life.
Inara, yea, I agree she was frosting in this one. BUT as a fan, I was SOOOO happy to see her back with Mal. I want their relationship to flourish. I think they could at the very least be great friends. He needs her knowledged and care, she needs his strenght and love. and she knows the bow and arrow, sword and martial arts, in firefly they explain she is well versed in defense.
Action, you gotta have it for the newbies, and all the people who give you the money to make a film, in the movie business, everyone even remotely associated with it wants to tell their friends that THEY came up with THAT idea. I used to be in animation, people's brother's mother's got to say what should be in our movies and when we (the artists) said something wasn't gonna work, no one listened. It's the execs, they always have to have their finger in the pie. sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.
you just gotta deal.
but I hope you give part 2 a chance to see if Joss answers any of your questions.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The problem I see with all these refutations of our disappointment is that they hinge on the idea that Joss somehow had to tell the story he told. He didn't. An artist has choices. Y'all say he had to change the story to make a movie, which may be true, but it doesn't mean he had to change the story in the manner he changed it. In another thread, I mentioned Batman Begins as a highly successful, cerebral, character driven action movie that made big, big bucks. To say that Joss had to make a popcorn movie just ain't so.
I do believe that Serenity is pretty close to what the 2nd season of Firefly would have been were it still on the air. Joss himself said that when he first wrote the script & it wound being too long it was because he tried to cram all he wanted from the 2nd season into the script. He did a rewrite to make it short enough to fit into the two hour time frame of the movie, but I believe the core of the movie was still where the 2nd season of the tv series would have taken us.
Both Alan Tudyk & Joss have mentioned that Wash would have most likely died before the end of the second season of the series, so why is his death in the movie any different. If Joss, Alan & the cast are okay w/ his death & the way it was done, why can't we the fans accept it?
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The huge problem with the "increase in tention" caused by Wash's death is that even the people who defend Joss's decision were taken out of the story by that event! Everyone is suddenly thrust into a meta-narrative of WWJD (what would Joss do?). We're not thinking about how our BDH's are going to deal with a specific problem in the story, we're thinking about how they're gonna deal with Joss Almighty. Aesthetically, killing Wash is nothing but a power trip, and only those of us who are obsessed with Joss's power (the hardcore fans) care. If he told a better story we'd all be thinking about what's happening to the characters in character terms, not hardcore fan terms. It's a huge error in judgement and a betrayal of the powerful sense of reality the show so effortlessly gave us week after week.
I'm sorry, but I don't think the death of either Wash or Book was part of any "power trip" on the part of Joss. In both Buffy & Angel we have seen that Joss is willing to kill of characters in order to further develop affected characters or pursue the development of his story. Why should Serenity be any different? Anyone that knows Joss knows that not all the characters are safe. Why should they be? Why should their reality be any different from our own where people die or are killed when placed into dangerous situations?
It is my belief that Wash and very likely Book would have died in the 2nd season of Firefly had it remained on television. The movie is the story Joss intended to convey on tv, but never got the chance to tell us. Not everyone will like the way the story goes, but you can't please everyone.
I don't agree that Joss "betrayed" us or made an "error in judgement" w/ the way he told the story. I respect your opinion & how you feel, but I do not agree.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
That Jayne's and Simon's relationship would evolve over several months is reasonable, but Joss didn't have to start the story so long after Objects in Space. More importantly, from a story standpoint, the changes should show some kind of logical progression--just saying "a lot can happen in seven months" is a cop-out. Joss was building a very specific kind of tention, with very specific and deep seated issues between these two characters. To simply replace it with a more expedient relationship is a betrayal of the story.
I do not see how the Jayne/Simon dynamic was unbelievable. Jayne & Simon were beginning to come to an understanding of sorts after the events in "Trash". Simon confronted Jayne over his betrayal on Ariel, but he also le
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I have to disagree. Many of these points are well stated and valid, but I also concur that even if it wasn't what you were looking for, sucked is too strong. Mr. Mom sucked. Maybe Matrix 2 sucked. Possibly even Alien 3.
I don't mean this as an attack or a trolling counter, but as an attempt to explain possible answers to your problems with the film, in hopes you might be able to see it again without loathing.
1. Wash needed to die. I liked him to. Wash was one of my favorite characters. But I don't disagree with Joss' decision to remove him. Joss kills characters if their death adds more than their continued existance. It's all for the story. Without Wash the show does change. Joss wanted it to change, to make it darked, less spoofy. Trust in Joss. Sometimes he'll screw up, like leaving season 7 of buffy to marti noxon.
2. Simon has nothing against Jayne. Simon is an extreme pragmatist. It's a philosophy that leaves no room for personal vendetta.
3. Book was probably removed for a similar reason as Wash, or maybe this was an issue with the actor. I know in an interview Ron Glass made no bones about not liking science fiction. Maybe he had something else he wanted to do. If anyone knows the answer, please post it. For me, I found Book's moral superiority hard to take, but I know Joss doesn't care whether I like a character, only is that character serves the story.
4. A movie is either action or contemplation. Since Joss has the whole show for contemplation, there's little to be gained by a movie more of it. This was intended as a dose of action. Thank you Joss, much appreciated.
5. I don't know why Joss doesn't kill villains, maybe he wants to reuse them or prove that heros are different. If someone has theories, post them.
6. Jayne states his opposition to a plan, but doesn't hold out. It's very different, he's not uncooperative, he's dissent. Good dissent makes its case, and when losing, joins the fight as best as possible.
7. I don't think it would weaken the alliance, but it will make it easier for Mal and Co to gain allies. There's still a lot of fight ahead.
8. I think the movie was primarily a change of direction for the crew. In the series, they were running away. Now they have decided to turn and fight. The movie was largely about this transition. So nothing was particularly gained, but the transferance within the characters occured, and this was the point. Future firefly will be different.
9. I don't know about Inara. I find her tremendously uninteresting. At worst, she's like a baywatch character: Eye candy that whines. I admit she's hot, but if I want to just look at hot girls there are many programs for that, and they won't whine and bitch. Inara's feeling of superiority is also a problem for me. This was something that bothered me about Book. I don't like self important folk who think they're better than everyone else. But that's just me. But in the show, Inara really didn't help that much, and got our guys into trouble. I think as a character she needs a lot more development for me to care whether she gets skewered by a docking clamp.
I agree the holo-graves made me uneasy. Cartoon tragedy always falls flat.
On a side argument here, I had something to say about Osama Bin Laden.
OBL was not "created" by the CIA. Sure, they assisted him, but he was already fighting a war. I'm not at all sure that OBL had anything to do with 9/11. He claimed credit for it 3 years later. That's very unlike a terrorist. Terrorists gain power by getting credit, and here was one where everyone was throwing credit his way, and he wasn't taking it. This is not a defense of Osama Bin Laden, who is a psycho. It's just intended to raise a little doubt.
I'm not sure that I buy either sides story. On the one hand, OBL single handed action, hijacks planes, that knocks down buildings. On the other side, US plots the whole thing from within.
I don't like the standard explanation because I think it defies physics. I'm fairly certain that two planes flying into the world trade centers would not c
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Quote:
Originally posted by FollowMal:
Well argued indeed!
You said everything I wanted to say back.
Just a note about Jayne. I think Jayne made a decision to follow Mal after Ariel. That convinced him Mal was worthy of his loyalty. And by asking him not to tell the others he gave away his feeling of family for them all. Jayne was as roped in as the rest of them to the destiny they all shared on this mission.
FollowMal
They killed Book! Jayne's buddy died because of this mess. Mal aside, Book was who Jayne was closest to. Why wouldn't he go along with them? Also, crew = family. Read the novel version, they explain a lot of the motives for why every character did what they did.
Also, as far as the title on this thread goes, remember what Joss said about "quiet reflection" if you didn't like the movie? That means stfu till it's out of the theatres so that it has a chance to do well. Fans are a blessing and a curse.
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"Let's move this conversation in a not-Jayne's-fault direction." - Jayne
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Idrawart, where did you work in animation? I used to work at DreamWorks Animation, and the situation you describe sounds very much like the events I witnessed there. (I'm now at Klasky-Csupo.)
"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care. Or indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." -Kerr Avon
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I was with Disney for 15 years, in EFX. Good for you still in the business, you do traditional or Maya?
I'm working in live action efx ( puppets) at the moment, but it's freelance, no bennies. it's a lot of fun and all the stuff hanging around the studio is cool.
what are you on.
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I was a production supervisor at DW (APM, in Disney terms!), and now produce commercials for Klasky. We do a little of everything - 2d, CG, live-action, stop-motion. I'm freelance as well, but it is pretty steady. What are you doing puppets for?
"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care. Or indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." -Kerr Avon
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I work with feathers and fur, doing animal puppets that they use for commercials. I did a rabbit for a fast food chain, refurbished the wings used in constantine, got to work on set with a pair of giant white wings recently. And I do a famous bird puppet that you see quite often in commercials.
I live the sky when it's just after sunset, that deep velvet blue.
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what did you work on at dreamworks?
I live the sky when it's just after sunset, that deep velvet blue.
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Road to el Dorado, Spirit, and Sinbad. After Sinbad, I got fed up with working insane hours for low pay, so I left. Best decision I ever made!
"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care. Or indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." -Kerr Avon
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