Anyone else disappointed?
POSTED BY: sagrilarus
UPDATED: Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:05
VIEWED: 41679
PAGE 12 of 14
Joss of /I hate making movies, I'd much rather be doing a TV show any day/? Anyway, yeah, sure, lots of stuff you can do in a movie you can't do in a show. But now that stuff is done. Joss loves making shows, he's said it many times, so there is more show coming if Joss can help it.
I remember seeing Buffy the movie when it came out. I loved it. It was irreverent sort of clueless with vampires, which was a definite upgrade. But when I saw the show at first I didn't get into it because it wasn't like the movie at all. Then in time I got addicted and now the show is way more precious to me.
This movie is unquestionably way better than that movie. But a show is a show, and this is a firefly fan site :), so, show talk, always valid. anyway, I can't really see it as that separate. but worth seeing again.
The non fans I know liked it okay, but not like the fans, so having seen the show definitely adds something to it.
I'm going to kill them all. That oughtta distract 'em.
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Dear K,
Many good points, well written.
Some people seem to keep thinking that I or you were suggesting that Simon was inept in the series. No way. But his power was his mind and skill not some quasi-James Bond type who could rescue his sister. Keeping the element of members of an underground resistance getting River out would have been so much better for the depth and fabric of both the personal and the big picture.
Joss has also shifted in his interviews the truth about the Alliance. In FIREFLY it is for sure a fascist type empire. In the show one felt the oppressive atmosphere and paranoia. Also in the show Simon's reason for being was to undo from within River the intent of her torturers to turn her into a military weapon. But for the execs at UNIVERSAL having River be a Terminator was far more box-office!!
I agree about the River doing a Buffy but there is a huge difference. SERENITY is not a mystical world the BuffyVerse is. So the laws of physics apply in FIREFLY/SERENITY.
I still believe Joss is very naive a political structure like the ALLIANCE be it fascist or non fascist would be responsible for far worse things. How else does it feed the wealth of its luxury on the "1st World" core-planets? How many other planets services this with "Mudders" type "Third World" poverty? How many wars is it fighting? How did the Reavers become the way they are?
In the TELEGRAPH article Joss describes the non-Alliance worlds as "strange, archaic or even barbaric" is it beyond his imagination to suggest that an anti-Alliance society could be the most forward thinking and the most enlightened? That among all those planets there could not be a social experiment worth fighting for.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
[B]@Teraph:
You would have a point if this was after the job and if it was after some time had past so that everyone had cooled down.
As it is, everyone is still geared up and in a massive fightn' adrenaline mood.
None of them were in a fighting mood. They were in a run away/try and stay alive mood.
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
1) Series Simon would've never hit Mal (or sucker punched) as he would know what series Mal would've done. Series Simon is a pacifist.
Remember just after he found out about Jayne betraying him and River in Ariel? Series Simon could've gotten him back in some way, but chose another route.
Simon would never hit Mal? The man who jumped from a second-story catwalk onto Dobson? The guy who threatened to let Kaylee die? The man who tried to push Jubal Early off a catwalk, charged Jubal Early in the cockpit, and jumped Jubal Early even after being shot? He did all those things to safeguard River.
You say he would never hit Mal? I say when it comes to his sister, we see what he's really willing to do.
And the revelation of Jayne selling them out? I think he did get him back. Finding out Simon knew while paralyzed and at Simon's mercy? Knowing that Simon could reveal his betrayal to the crew? I don't think Simon will kill in cold blood, so that's what he's left with for Jayne.
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
2) Series Mal would've hit him.
In fact, in the series when Simon first came on board and just mentioned that Mal would be good working with the Alliance, Mal hit Simon.
Mal hits Simon twice. Once when he thinks Simon is an Alliance mole who has sold out his ship and crew, and once when Simon insults Mal's integrity and honor by suggesting that Mal cowardly serves the beck and call of the Alliance (moments after Mal has just threatened to toss Simon out an airlock if Kaylee -- part of his crew -- dies). In the second one Mal was already pissed and feeling violent toward Simon.
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
This is a worse infraction in some regards. Mal had just almost died and would've done more than just talk. Remember when the fed mole was on Serenity ep Serenity? Mal just killed him not even a blink. Series Mal would definitly have hit him.
The fed mole who had a gun to someone's head? The fed mole whose armed presence in the cargo bay was a direct obstacle to getting off Whitefall before the Reavers attacked and killed them all? That fed mole?
He shot Dobson to save himself, his his crew and his ship. I'd say those circumstances were significantly more severe than being sucker punched once by the ship's doctor.
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
And no, Simon didn't get the point pretty quick. It took acouple tries for Mal to get through to him.
We must have different definitions of quick.
Simon: PUNCH
Mal: "Do you want me to shoot you?"
Simon: "Insult"
Mal: "I'm gonna shoot you."
Simon: "Here's my grievance."
That seems pretty quick to me.
And I find all of it to be consistent behavior that flows from their characters and their circumstances. Even things I didn't like (e.g., Kaylee being so much less cheerful) made perfect sense to me given their circumstances.
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Sorry gotta disagree again. I don't want to get to be a pain. I guess I just gotta say when I disagree.
I thought the rescue seen was much like the scene in ariel. For Simon. It's how I had pictured it going, more or less. Maybe a little less bondy, but it didn't have me saying Nah, that wouldn't happen.
Joss knew it was a western, he knew the alliance was US, the evil was clearly a dominant rogue internal element.
River going all Terminator or whathaveyou, that's how it was always going to go down. War Stories. No power in the verse can stop me. Remember? This is clearly headed to this slaughter scene one hundred percent of the time. I think this is what I expected to see from about episode one. It was awesome too.
Physics doesn't apply here. or is it physics don't? Anyway. River, what she does, it's way past what buffy does but it's perfectly in the bounds of reality. It wasn't just movie fantasy that ninjas could fight like that, it's an art.
River never exhibits superhuman strength. Take the ninja. He practices meditation, learns how to quiet the signal down to next to nothing, and kick his mental adrenalin into high gear. Now magnify that power. Take someone who can silence the signal completely, sideline it, and then see it, as if it were an image, and can kick up norepinephrine to a level that would kill an unmodified brain.
Next to her, everyone else would be standing still. This isn't a defiance of physics, it's just defying what we know as normalcy in humans. Take a look at animals or insects. Combat situations like this clearly exist. Even commonplace ones like hornets vs. bees. One hornet can take out a thousand bees single-handedly. And it doesn't have anywhere near the advantage that River does.
I don't attempt to get into Joss' politics. I know that he's a libertarian, with a small l, as in not the party, but that much is extremely obvious. If anyone missed the whole "we're anarchists" thing in buffy, it was the same sort of perspective. Joss is basically saying: Civilization, who needs it. I think the implication is always that the ultimately "civilized" society is an ant hill, and who would want to live in such a society? But I can't speak for Joss. That's just the civil libertarian thread I see as the overwhelming political statement of the shows, which in itself is not particularly right/left.
I'm going to kill them all. That oughtta distract 'em.
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i think howie may be a kook
those that beat swords into plowshares will farm for those of us that dont
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This site is the best for general movie finanical, etc. information. The BDM still hasnt broke even.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=daily&id=serenity.htm
Those that beat their swords into plowshares will farm for those of us that dont.
Steve from Yuma....OUT
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Quote:Okay, I'm gonna try my hand at this kooky argument. Have any of you arguing these points every thrown a punch? It is just about the stupidest way to make your point. Some people would say it was childish in the extreme and very low class, know what I mean? That's why Simon wouldn't punch Mal, because it is totally beneath him and pointless. It's something semi-trained apes do to prove who's the biggest ape. Simon was just a little bit like a real person, with certain limitations of character and personality before he got injected with rowdy-pop-corn-movie DNA in Serenity.
Originally posted by teraph:
Simon would never hit Mal? The man who jumped from a second-story catwalk onto Dobson? The guy who threatened to let Kaylee die? The man who tried to push Jubal Early off a catwalk, charged Jubal Early in the cockpit, and jumped Jubal Early even after being shot? He did all those things to safeguard River.
You say he would never hit Mal? I say when it comes to his sister, we see what he's really willing to do.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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This thread is already so long that it takes WAY too long to laod in my browser, but I can't resist adding to it...
One thing I agree with is that River was clearly always heading in this direction. She had clearly been designed to be some sort of super-human, psychic, weapon, hence the preternatural fighting skills even on the series ("War Stories").
If you were surprised to see that change in the movie, I can't understand why. Not only was it pretty clear from the movie, and from Joss's previous shows, but the advertisements and trailers fetured River kicking ass pretty prominently.
If you were disappointed to see that change, well, I guess you can be, but it certainly wasn't an unexpected or sudden shift in character (well, except that it happened faster, given the time constraints of a movie).
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Your interpretation of "civilization" and
"we're anarchists" is very faulty.
Anarchism is civilization from the bottom
up not top down!!
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Kestrel - I enjoyed your post very much, but I must correct you on one point. The bridge was always blue. The engine room and the dining hall and Inara's shuttle had the orange and red warm tones, the hallways and the engine room had blue tones, and the cargo bay was all grey.
But to the complaining:
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SPOILER WARNING *** SPOILER WARNING**
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For me, Joss Whedon is like Chris Carter, i.e. I always complain as much as I praise. But, I took most of the character differences in stride, as more of a regression (for the sake of newbies)than out of character. And I enjoyed the movie a great deal, though I agree it was not as character driven as the show, or as I would have liked. But I was very angry about Wash's demise, and think I personally would have acted out of character if I had run into Joss Whedon in the parking lot. What angered me was that it seemed to serve no purpose at all other than to rip our hearts out and show them to us. (I don't find any of the above justifications very compelling.) And what really sent me over the edge, was that Joss seems to really LOVE doing this. He has never ended a series without knocking off a couple main characters, often senselessly. (Enya anyone?) As soon as Wash said "I am a leaf" for the third time, I saw it coming. At least in the Buffyverse there were loopholes. I am only hoping that should there be any subsequent Firefly productions they will take place prior to these events, because I would miss Wash.
All I can say to Joss is, "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"
I do have many GOOD things to say about the movie, but that is for another post.
"Pain is scary."
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