A Modest Proposal...
POSTED BY: Thanatus
UPDATED: Saturday, October 8, 2005 00:26
VIEWED: 15989
PAGE 5 of 6
Ain't nothin' wrong atall for being a Serenity hugger *and* talking about what didn't work for you in the movie. How it can improve, etc... I say "Blind faith works - once you've had your eyes jabbed out..."
Quote:
Originally posted by Thanatus:Quote:
Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
I see your point. Quite entertaining. (Honestly, no sarcasm there.)
Why is it, though, that so many who didn't like Serenity jump to the conclusion that those who did are mindless, Whedon-fellating zombies, incapable of forming their own opinion on what The Joss presents to them?
Cuz, well, I think that's probably the case for some, but I imagine them to be the crazy fringe few.
Cheers.
无 党派 人士
HK...That's kinda what I'm getting at here. As someone who was diasappointed with the movie, I can tell you that it's a very lonely place to be. It just seems like so many of the Serenity huggers think people are out of their minds for not liking it, and those tend to be the vocal minority. Again, I liked the movie - on its own merits. It's more a feeling of disappointed that beset me more than repulsion. I am hearing reviewers referencing the rabid Browncoat fan base, and have even said that (we) are turning other genre fans away from the franchise. You know it's funny, Book was probably my favorite character, but I can accept his death. It just seems like the story and the franchise would have been so much better served by changed Wash (maybe paraplegic or something...I don't know), not a dead Wash. Does that sense of unrealised potential make any sense?
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Nope, no disagreement here at all... [Shakes hands and looks around, eyeing the corner of the house] "You know, this isn't too bad, but maybe that support there don't look too right, could use some straightening..."
Quote:
Originally posted by nosadseven:Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Well, that's one view and your view; certainly an apt analogy. So now that you've tried the Bordeaux, what if you are asked to try the Beaujoulais? If JW's word is not Gospel and it's ok to examine the ideas, styles, concepts, plotlines, and the rest of the innerworkings of the art, then it should ok and worthwhile to examine at least both sides of the coin. On top of what worked, what was grand, and what really clicked, we should be able to get together and truly discuss what did not work, what wasn't so hot, and what didn't do it for us.
If we are all exactly alike, all drones of each other (borgs if you would), then I can understand that there isn't a need for expressing outselves and making discussion; and I think you would agree that we absolutely are not exactly alike, not by a far shot. I think it's appropriate to not close off *any* ideas. I think we should bring out both sides of the discussion. I think we should be able to listen to our contemporaries bring about their ideas intellectually and not spew vectives at them as if they never belonged here.
Attitudes like that, unfortunately, only serves to increase the perception of fandom, alienate potential allies, scare people off, and drive ticket sales down.
I don't see us disagreeing at all, here. I was just trying to illustrate how what's often touted as an extreme i.e."trust in Joss", may not really be all that extreme. And though I didn't say it, that absolutely goes both ways, so thank you for bringing it up. It's really just the marginalization that's been getting to me - the spewing of vectives and such - which is indeed exactly what shuts down the discourse.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.
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ya know...I've been going over Serenity again and again in my head. I may go see it again, even though it rides against my better judgement. But after considering the BDM and watching some of my favorite eps of Firefly over the past couple of days I've figured out the problem here. Hope. Firefly was all about hope and freedom (you can't take the sky from me). A small cadre against the great big baddies (unarmed broke-dick cargo ship against the Man). On the Alliance...I got a much more ominous feeling about the Alliance when I saw the Dortmunder roll up on Serenity in Bushwhacked than at any point in Serenity. With the sole exception of the Operative, the Alliance seemed more like the Government of Canada...big and unweildy, but essentially harmless. (apologies to all of my Canuck mates in the Great White North 
) Serenity didn't convey that feel of hope and freedom to me or any of my mates. It felt like a dark episode of Andromeda (only seen two of 'em so it may not be an apt comparisson). The feel was less "you can't take the sky from me..." and more "...but you can take everything else from me". Here is where I duck for cover...I would almost hope that Joss would make a sequel which opens with River waking up from a dream sequence ala Wizard of Oz and we can all just breathe a sigh of relief that Serenity never really happened (aunt Zoe you were in my dream, and uncle Wash too!) To tell you the truth, that's about the only thing people wouldn't see coming! Before people start trying to find out where I live and work...the dream sequence was a bit of a sartorial comment...K? Thoughts?
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Actually when Wash died, I thought the whole thing might be a vision of River's, (a la Trance Gemini for Andromeda fans). However (and this is just my opinion), if the whole thing was just a dream of River's it would seem, well cheap. You can do things on TV shows that you cannnot do in good movies, absurd things like time travel and other stuff like that. Movies (usually) have a greater format to convey emotions and feelings then the sometimes limited frame of a television episode. In my mind, the dream idea would be like if aliens were put into the movie. Overused and overrated. Then again I watch a lot of sci-fi so maybe the dream idea is just old to me. Also Serenity? The Big Damn Movie? The one every Browncoat has seen at least twice? The one that every Browncoat is trying to get people to see before this weekend at the risk of alienating friends and family? They might feel a bit gypped if the whole movie wasn't real. (They live in a spaceship. You know what I mean). So many people are upset about the deaths of Book and Wash but many good things happened as well.
Select to view spoiler:
-Inara came back on the ship
-Mal found something to believe in
-River is no longer totally skitso
-KAYLEE AND SIMON FINALLY FELL IN LOVE. (About damn time).
Not to say that these things outweigh the deaths of Wash and Book, (Can't put a price on life) but how much would it suck if that was all changed? Then its back to the same old angst ridden Mal, the removed Inara, the pyschotic River and the same goddamn awkwardness between Kaylee and Simon due to their social structures and upbringings. (Which happens to be the most original idea for romance I've ever heard). *cough* BULLSHIT *cough. And ok fine, maybe we liked angst-ridden Mal and the awkwardness between Kaylee and Simon and River's "mood swings". Actually I loved River's mood swings. However change has happened and I'm willing to see what happens now and how the characters adjust within their new lives. Unless of course it turns into the future of Thanatus. Then that's just not cool.
On a different subject all of this may be moot. This weekend will determine the fate of Serenity 2 and/or Firefly Season 2. Whatever the case, Serenity's ticket earnings are nowhere near where they need to be, (and don't speak to me about DVD sales, they won't come in time). So if we want the adventures of a certain crew to continue, it's time to kick it up a notch. Go see the movie again. Bring family, friends, that random guy across the street and draw your line in the sand. We've done the impossible and that makes us mighty. It does not make us invincible. We are not so pretty that God (or Hollywood) won't let us die. So you hold this position as long as you can. We are on the right side. Let's not make it be the losing one.
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Actually...not poorly stated QUASAR. Although "the future of Thanatus"? Not so much. I mean who could doubt the artistic genious behind the whole "who shot JR" dream sequence? [drippiing with sarcasm] A dream sequence is definitely not a viable solution...but I'm just hoping Joss can somehow "fix" this whole thing, if given the chance. I'm hearing it from people new to Firefly/Serenity. My father, among others whom I convinced to invest in this thing and are new to the series, have said things to me like "too bad the movie didn't better resemble those DVDs you gave me" and "that was the same guy that did Firefly?" They're not going to go see Serenity again, and that's not my fault people. I really do believe in Mr. Whedon's abilities...I just thinnk he blew it on this one, and let down many of the fans, potential fans, not to mention these fine actors who did the best they could with what they had. As far as going to see the movie again and again (and again)...I'm not above buying tickets and just letting them go unused. Just not sure I want to subject myself to a movie that, in my opinion, just wasn't that entertaining. I'm not even talking about the whole point of controversy vis-a-vis Wash. I'm talking about the whole feel and execution of the thing. I'm just saying if I didn't enjoy the movie why risk burning the thing into my memory and forever tainting future viewings of Firefly episodes on DVD? I'll fund the movie as best I can. But seriously, what's more the mark of a true (and rational) fan...repeatedly watching a movie I don't like in the hopes that I can make myself like it...or put a little faith in Mr. Whedon's ability to (in my opinion) salvage this thing for Serenity 2? I'm just saying that I wish he would make it based on Firefly rather than basing it on this Serenity Bizarro World. I mean really...all that's missing is Mal with a Fu-Manchu style goatee and an over-sexed Inara in a mini-skirt (reference to ST TOS "Mirror, Mirror,"). Finally as far as the resolution of the Mal/Inara and Simon/Kaylee angst goes...does the word "Moonlighting" mean anything to anyone? Don't quite know why, but main character getting past their angst and hooking up is more of a death sentence than suffering the kinetic trauma of a Reaver harpoon. Open to contrary opinions, though...
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thanatus:
I'm hearing it from people new to Firefly/Serenity. My father, among others whom I convinced to invest in this thing and are new to the series, have said things to me like "too bad the movie didn't better resemble those DVDs you gave me" and "that was the same guy that did Firefly?"
Funny you should say that, Thanatus. I'm finding that Serenity is actually playing better for people who never saw the series. In essence, Joss' gamble succeeded where he wanted it to. Several reviews I've read lauded him for the danger he created. Most folks who don't know the show from Adam think it was a pretty good movie. Now, the question becomes, should Joss have made a movie just for the fans and cut loose the rest of the world?
We'll know in a week or two.
As far as Moonlighting is concerned... anybody remember Ross and Rachel in Friends? Turns out a show can have tension 'resolved' and still continue.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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My point exactly AnthonyT...my father and others were new to the storyline, but had seen a few episodes of Firefly that I loaned them. Their impression of the movie was not entirely negative. It was a disappointed and an example of an opportunity wasted. Look I'm not gonna say that you're out of your mind if you liked this film...just not gonna do it. But you want to say this is great because reviewers said so? Come on...you can find some reviewers that liked Ishtar. Serenity is no Ishtar, but it should stand on its own merits and not be reliant upon the opinions of reviewers. A moment of intellectual honesty here Anthony...if Serenity were panned by reviewers and universally loathed, how many posts on this board would have said "Bah! Reviewers don't get it...they don't understand...they don't matter". Needs no answer, just think on it. Regarding Friends...you may be right. As an ensemble cast, the Friends/Firefly parallel may be more apt than the Moonlighting/Firefly parallel. Anyway you still need some tension there IMHO...you can't resolve it all or it becomes Love Boat: The Next Generation. :)
Cheers...
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Thanatus,
Here's my point.
If this was 'Space Rebels, the movie' and not related to Firefly...
If there were wicked space zombies in the climactic final scenes...
Wouldn't you expect a tragic end for some of the characters?
Imagine Aliens if nobody died.
That is the responsibility of Space Rebels, the movie. That is what people watching Space Rebels need to see.
It's only some of the people who came to watch Firefly, the movie who are bothered by this. People who went to the theaters to see Space Rebels think that everything that happened was logical, good, and exciting.
The gamble is this: Firefly, the movie is only good for people who liked Firefly. Space Rebels is good for everyone else.
Putting aside all interviews, deep down I feel that Joss made Space Rebels, the movie, with a Firefly flavor.
I think he did it because he thought it was the best way to make a good movie.
We will know very soon if it was a good decision or a bad decision.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by zark1976:
Also, if we're speaking of reality vs. fictionalized drama, can you explain whiy a sword to the gut still allows a man to continue fighting? I'm sorry, I was more shocked that after all of the injuries taken at the end of the movie, that any of them were able to do anything.
You might be surprised what you can do in a life or death situation when you are hopped up on adrenaline & you have the willpower & fortitude that Mal & the crew demonstrated. I've seen people do some amazing things when push comes to shove.
__________________________________________
"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
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Anthony you are 100% correct. We will see soon enough, and I hope I am wrong. As someone else on this board said, and as my relatives and compadres that I *coerced* into seeing the BDM have said...this movie feels like more of an ending than a beginning. I do fundamentally disagree with your statement that "That (main character death) is what people watching Space Rebels need to see" however. I don't think we need to see anything except a good movie with a good story and some good characters. I am coming at this from a market and fan perspective. If your goal is to make three movies, and you kill off two characters per movie because people need to see that, by the end you have a very dark and depressing trilogy with Mal, River, and ? to go forward with. Maybe we only "need" to see the death of main characters in the first movie. Why there and nowhere else? If there is a second Serenity, I and many others will go see it, but the thought foremost on my mind will not be "you can't take the sky from me..." as it was for Serenity, but rather "who dies next, how, and in what order". Great. I don't know. I do know that if you need to witness the poorly executed death of major (and seemingly integral) characters to be a fan of this franchise, then I just need to be told where to send in my Firefly Fan ID Card. I'll tell you...Nobody that I have ever given the DVD set to has disliked Firefly. The most negative response I've gotten is "cowboys in space? Idon't get it..." And that is fine. But here's where we are going to have to agree to disagree I guess...Space Rebels is only good for people who don't have the patience or imagination for Firefly. Firefly, the movie is good for everyone else.
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