A Modest Proposal...
POSTED BY: Thanatus
UPDATED: Saturday, October 8, 2005 00:26
VIEWED: 15989
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I'm not sure why Joss did what he did. Maybe it was a cheap trick to put the audience on the edge of their seats for the finale, although I'd expect better treatment of a character from Joss. Over the years, I've come to respect Joss as a sollid craftsman -- someone who understands the medium in which he works and uses it effectively.
When i was younger, I used to read Harlan Ellison's short stories. For all of their artistry, I often found myself angry at him as an author. Why? Because he would create characters, throw them into the deep end of the pool (metaphorically speaking) -- and then happily record their subsequent drowning.
As a writer myself, I have an unholy respect for my characters -- a love that some authors might find ludicrous. I don't believe they exist solely to advance the plot, anymore than human beings exist just to move along the action in everyday life. People are more than what they do, Satre notwithstanding. I throw challenges at my people, and they respond as best they can. It is their reaction to the challenges that moves the plot. As a result of overcoming the challenges, they learn and grow, and then I throw harder challenges at them so they can learn and grow more.
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But if you kill a character, it should be for something more than just for effect.
I didn't want Wash dead, ever. I certainly didn't want him killed to create a mood, or raise the level of dramatic tension.
Part of Joss's skill is his ability to create characters that transcend their existence as characters, and become people you feel you know. He facilitates an extension of the viewer's suspension of disbelief to the point where you'd love to sit down in Serenity's kitchen and spend time chowing down with this crew.
Wash was family, his fictitious status notwithstanding. To have him killed so precipitously, torn away without warning -- well, it's like watching an old friend step off the curb into the path of an oncoming semi. If Joss used him as a tool for establishing dramatic tension, it's even worse. Instead, it's like watching someone you trust SHOVE your old friend in front of the semi just to make you worry that someone else you love might be next.
Yes, Wash belonged to Joss. But he belonged to all of us too, because we gave him life by believing in him and the whole crew.
This being said, he's gone. Any attempt for Joss to bring him back to life would be no better than Spock's return from death in the Trek movie franchise. I can think of a neat way to bring him back that would be funny and touching and right for Wash -- as a ghost only River (and the audience) could see and hear, delivering ongoing commentary about the action without being able to take part. Even so, the empty seat at Serenity's table would stay empty. And his wry counterpoint to the "wacky fun" would go unheard, and unanswered, by the crew.
I guess the bottom line for me is this. Joss can do what he wants with his characters. But Wash was ours as much as he was Joss's, because we gave him life and believed in him. And even though Wash wasn't real. I will mourn his loss. The franchise isn't dead, and it promises to take some interesting twists and turns in the future (if there is one).
But the dinosaurs are silent, the Hawaiian shirts are packed away, and Zoe sleeps alone. Requiescat in pace, old friend. You will be missed.
Had my say, done my dance. The rest is dust and ashes.
"Big damn heroes? AINTWEJUST."
"Everybody dies alone." -- Mal Reynolds
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thanatus:Quote:
Originally posted by BoomerGoodheart:
HKC, I don't know what you meant exactly about the "Missourians" comment, but as a said "Missourian", I'm somewhat miffed.
Please explain your comment.
BoomerGoodheart
"I love my Captain."
A reference to the whole "Show Me" mindset that your people are renown for?
heh, is it that or is it that most "Missourians" refer to themselves as being in the "State of Misery"... lol, know enough "Missourians" to figure that most would have left if given the choice. Only knew a few coworkers who relocated there because they thought it was better weather from where they were originally from - but they were from Ottawa....
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Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.
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I truely find this thread absurd. You didn't like the movie. Fine. Art is personal, it speaks to you or it doesn't.
But I personally find your post vulgar and hope that Hanken will have the curteousy to remove it.
NY/NJ Browncoats: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly_nyc
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AINTWEJUST,
Thank you. That was very well spoken, and exactly what I was looking for. QUASARWINDS, you are right. Of course the openning would have some shock value. (If it worked for Johnathan Swift, I thought I'd give it a try...apparently not as succesful as Johnny, though) I had hoped that it would cause some lively debate rather than have people say "Wow this psycho really wants Joss to have Zoe commit suicide!?" Let me be clear (again)...I am certainly not advocating a continuation and broadenning of that which I think was the biggest failing of the movie. But in the end, I'm not here to tell Joss how to do his job. I can't, I'm not a writer. And as for dumbing down my speech and cutting all use of Latin (the whole one phrase I used)...no thanks. I appreciate the advice, but I put faith in AINTWEJUST, HKCAVALIER, and the like. But you're right QUASARWINDS...I'll contact the admin. to see if they can/will delete this thread, as it is having the opposite effect that I had hoped...I've said my piece (even if it did seriously tax the binding on my really good dictionary, and the patience of my really smart friends)
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Thanatus,
I don't see anything wrong with asking anyone, any human being to do a bit of self-reflection and self-analysis. I think you've posited rather succintly and laid out your proposal calmly and intelligently. I just don't think this is the right forum or the right time and place for this kind of discussion. Most people here are entrenched in a subculture. By definition (and I'm sure you've seen from your personal observations) that people have a self-identity that they cling to (rather desperately at times). Most people aren't comfortable or even capable of doing any type of self examinations - in fact, that's why the entire industry of psychiatry is so successful - most people need someone's help to bounce themselves off from; but only if they are willing, comfortable enough, and knows how to.
Does it take a certain diplomatic skills to be able to dance around and approach the topic at hand? I doubt if even Bill Clinton can do it and not get tomatoes thrown at him. My point is, you've got folks who's very identity are dependent on "whatever it is that JW makes up"; and you go and ask them to question that. Most people would not only be uncomfortable, but likely unwilling to do so. You are asking them to tear down their own god and move to a new position which puts them in with the commoners - the folks who don't believe in their god. That's not possible.
I think I've always hoped that people would be able to recognize their own inability to self-reflect. But I lose faith each time people, people that I know are smart, reduce themselves to the same idiotic levels by arguing that the arguments you use are too smarty-pants'ed and too edumecated...
And people who argue that there isn't a need for discussions or meta-discussions just because things are the way they are irregardless - take it or leave it, doubly so. They really and truly need to learn to be able to take a good long hard look inward and see what they are, what motivates them, and why they do that is what they do.
Truly, Mr. Smarty-Pants, tell us like you think it is, ignore the people who can't present their arguments but rather just continue to question your motive, people who are motivated to tear you down so their own beliefs can stand "unscathed".
People who, thru their own continued ignorance or lack the capacity, to fully appreciate the need for self-reflection.
Whatever it is, continue the meta-discussion. Take heart, it is possible to hae a meta-discussion just like this without the "fanboy" attitude "all in your face". You shouldn't have to continually apologize for bring this up.
BTW, that other thread where HKC posted his thoughts is rather long for some folks with limited patience and time to hunt thru, you might want to use the actual pinpoint URL into it...
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13444#186501
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Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.
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Thanatus,
looks like you got half way there with your approach to reductio ad absurdum. Dietcoke did find it absurd... Now you just have to get thru to him how absurd the entire idea is - include his own behavior...
Is it Art or is it Censorship?
or maybe it's both. Have your Art and Censorship too?
Quote:
Originally posted by dietcoke:
I truely find this thread absurd. You didn't like the movie. Fine. Art is personal, it speaks to you or it doesn't.
But I personally find your post vulgar and hope that Hanken will have the curteousy to remove it.
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Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thanatus:
Why not have characters faced with real challenges and difficulties that they have to deal with and grow through?
Do you find it difficult to understand that is what we will see if there are any sequels? Zoe is going to have to learn to live without Wash, and she may have a problem forgiving Mal. If that is not what you mean by a challenge I'm not sure what type you might prefer to see.
wo men ren ran zai fei xing.
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I don't understand why people get so offended when someone suggests that they "trust in Joss". I've never personally said it, but my understanding of what they are trying to communicate is that they enjoy his work, and that even if at times they thought they might not be so sure about it, they stuck with it and came to enjoy it even more. That doesn't mean they're brainless or "drinking the Kool-Aid", just that they've had past experience and have found that sticking with Joss's stories has paid off for them.
As for me, I don't necessarily want what happens in Joss's stories to happen, but when I try to write stories where what I want to happen happens, they pretty much suck. So, I choose to follow his vision, to try to understand what he's doing, why he's doing it, and how and why it affects me. If I can't stomach how it affects me, or if I just don't want to be affected that way, or worse, if I find it just doesn't affect me at all, then I move on to something else. I don't feel any need to suggest it should be different, because, frankly, choose-your-own-adventure books suck worse than my own attempts at fiction.
So, when I sign on with Joss's works, I know that I'm not in control of where it goes, but I also know that I can get off. Sometimes, just knowing that I can get off, makes me comfortable enough to stay on through a bumpy (or even disappointing) ride, because ultimately, it's not that big of a risk when considering the potential reward.
Rather than fight what happens in Serenity, I want to understand it, to get the most out of it that I can. I may not have expected it to go down the way it did, but that doesn't mean that it had no merit and cannot be appreciated. The more time that passes, and the more times I see the movie, the more I get out of it. Not because I'm brainwashing myself, but because I can learn from stretching myself - from leaving my comfort zone.
I used to not be able to drink wine without gagging. But, over time, I was able to develop a fine appreciation of wine - now I greatly enjoy it, and it enhances my life (or at least, nice meals). I haven't sold out to Big Wine. I've grown, and I'm better off for it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.
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Well, that's one view and your view; certainly an apt analogy. So now that you've tried the Bordeaux, what if you are asked to try the Beaujoulais? If JW's word is not Gospel and it's ok to examine the ideas, styles, concepts, plotlines, and the rest of the innerworkings of the art, then it should ok and worthwhile to examine at least both sides of the coin. On top of what worked, what was grand, and what really clicked, we should be able to get together and truly discuss what did not work, what wasn't so hot, and what didn't do it for us.
If we are all exactly alike, all drones of each other (borgs if you would), then I can understand that there isn't a need for expressing outselves and making discussion; and I think you would agree that we absolutely are not exactly alike, not by a far shot. I think it's appropriate to not close off *any* ideas. I think we should bring out both sides of the discussion. I think we should be able to listen to our contemporaries bring about their ideas intellectually and not spew vectives at them as if they never belonged here.
Attitudes like that, unfortunately, only serves to increase the perception of fandom, alienate potential allies, scare people off, and drive ticket sales down.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Well, that's one view and your view; certainly an apt analogy. So now that you've tried the Bordeaux, what if you are asked to try the Beaujoulais? If JW's word is not Gospel and it's ok to examine the ideas, styles, concepts, plotlines, and the rest of the innerworkings of the art, then it should ok and worthwhile to examine at least both sides of the coin. On top of what worked, what was grand, and what really clicked, we should be able to get together and truly discuss what did not work, what wasn't so hot, and what didn't do it for us.
If we are all exactly alike, all drones of each other (borgs if you would), then I can understand that there isn't a need for expressing outselves and making discussion; and I think you would agree that we absolutely are not exactly alike, not by a far shot. I think it's appropriate to not close off *any* ideas. I think we should bring out both sides of the discussion. I think we should be able to listen to our contemporaries bring about their ideas intellectually and not spew vectives at them as if they never belonged here.
Attitudes like that, unfortunately, only serves to increase the perception of fandom, alienate potential allies, scare people off, and drive ticket sales down.
I don't see us disagreeing at all, here. I was just trying to illustrate how what's often touted as an extreme i.e."trust in Joss", may not really be all that extreme. And though I didn't say it, that absolutely goes both ways, so thank you for bringing it up. It's really just the marginalization that's been getting to me - the spewing of vectives and such - which is indeed exactly what shuts down the discourse.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.
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