Discussion for the subject: What happened to my show, 'cause Serenity wasn't it?!
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 03:51
VIEWED: 33215
PAGE 6 of 11
Quote:Since we're boldly talkin' turkey here, let me let loose an idea I had after seeing the fourth season of Buffy (and take a chance on bein' shot in the process).
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
But my worries were unfounded, I see. Thanks everyone, for being so decent and understanding. I'm glad it gave voice to some folks' disquiet over the BDM.
The fan-driven idea is a legitimate one, for me, at least. Buffy peaked at season three, and then the whole "Let's do THIS now with her" took over.
Enjoyable, albeit nonsensical storytelling was the name of the game. Firefly seemed to be beyond that, but as we see in the BDM, Joss will always come back to the 'fan tickle', which is okay with me, as long as it's not the point of a scene or a movie. For me, the 'fan tickles' in the BDM were acceptable and amusing. But strung out over years, I'm afraid Firefly might have had Kaylee construct her own Simonbot at some point. And here's where I get ready to duck:
I think it might have been a good thing Firefly was canceled...
Cancelation forced Joss to make a concentrated effort to tell the most powerful story he could all at once, without falling back on the Buffy-like-nonsense and soap opera romance-switching that permeates Buffy and Angel (although I admit that it's way more acceptable for me what he does in those shows, 'cause they're based on fantasy, and in fantasy, everything goes- science fiction demands sticking to the rules of the reality you create, IMHO).
Watching the BDM for me was like watching half a dozen of the most important Joss-written and directed episodes that would've appeared in two or more seasons of Firefly, without the 'filler' episodes that would've ( most probably ) found their way into the series while Joss was working on a new project ( Wonder Woman, for example ), and then encoded for quick download to my brain in a two-hour format such that 119 minutes feels like a mini-series to me! I REALLY liked it!
Yeah, Simon rescuing River was a little over-played (as I understand from FF, he paid someone else to get it done, he did not actually participate), and yeah, having River do a Buffy on the Reavers was a little bit of an easy out at the end, but on the whole, I really loved it.
And Mal's part in it all was the REAL story here, and the main reason for my approval, just as in Return Of The Jedi, where Luke's story is more important to me than fuzzy Ewoks and IMPOSSIBLE forest chases.
Serenity has flaws to be sure, but for me the gold in Serenity is very shiny, and far outweighs the pyrite.
I am wont to read much into films, it's been said. I may be connecting gaps in storytelling, or filling in plot holes, or possibly even excusing poor or easy choices in my mind without even being aware of it because what I like about it, I like so much.
But that's between me and my mind.
HK, you sound so much like I did after seeing Matrix: Revolutions, certainly the resentment's there. It's hard to believe we had such different experiences out of the same movie!
Either way, we'll always have Firefly.
Chrisisall, still processing
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Quote:*Chrisisall embraces the fanboy moment*
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Simon is given info he never had until Ariel, The Simon in the Alliance uniform is smoooooooth, and the Simon of Firefly is anything but smooth. As fan-fiction though, Simon’s impersonation is awesome--Go Simon!
At the beginning of Serenity we see a computer generated 'assessment' of River's escape from her imprisonment and experimentation, it cannot be actual images taken at the scene, as there cannot be enough cameras to collect enough 'shots' for such a movie-like presentation. And Simon was not present at her liberation, he paid a 'faction' to do it. The computer was just giving it's own account of how it probably happened, and decided Simon must have done it himself (or maybe this version is the one preferred to be played most often by the Operative, as it certainly is more dramatic than the actual events.
Perhaps any real images of how River was taken out of there were destroyed in some sort of...destructive incident....that, destroyed them...
yeah...that's it!
Chrisisall, fanwankin' away
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I am going to aplogize in advance. I didn't read everyone's posts, so I am sorry if I repeat what someone else has already said.
I was dissapointed with the movie because to me it didn't feel as much like 'Firefly' as I thought it should. One thing that really jumped out at me was the fact that it really lacked the western side that Firefly was so good as combining. I mean, you saw a little, but not as much as you did in the shows. I understand you can't have everything in a two hour movie; but I think that is what really made it feel like it wasn't Firefly.
I also don't like the sullen, bitter Mal as much as I like the rough-n-ready, this is how its gonna be Mal. I understand why he was bitter, but I like him much better when he was a little more relaxed.
So, basically, what I am saying is no, it did not feel like Firefly. I was very dissapointed in it.
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I just got back from seeing the BDM again. I saw it on the first day it was released, and loved it, but also felt the 2X punch of the Book and Wash thing. Strangely, with each additional viewing of the flick, it settles in more. And more subtle elements of the story come into focus. For those of you who are writing it off as a bad turn in the plot, I'd recommend going back and seeing it again (and again and again, after all we want this thing to be a success that spawns a return of the series or sequels). It works. Least it works for me.
As to this issue of Mal's bitter transformation, it all seems sensible to me. Mal says to Simon in the movie he's having to turn down honest work and step twice as fast to stay ahead of the Alliance because of Simon and River (which makes him edgy), Inara has split the scene, thus further aggravating him (obviously because neither her nor Mal can seem to reconcile their feelings for one another), and as the movie progresses the pressure is ramped up from being pursued. I mean c'mon already. He has Book and his flock's bodies strapped to his ship to get thru Reaver space when he obviously was fond of the man in a father-son sort of way. Everything there seems to fall right in line with the plot from the FF series, and doesn't strike me as being out of character, all things considered.
As to this issue of Simon's rescue of River, somehow I just don't see how his statement in the series that a faction helped him smuggle River out from Alliance control in cryo precludes him from having had an active hand in the rescue. Much ado about nothing, IMHO.
Everything in the BDM worked for me.
XG
No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-as-it-was" just sucks.
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HKCavalier:
I was with you until "The sense of family and intimacy..." paragraph, where you started to invent your own fan fiction as well as some genuinely hallucinatory fiction.
"Zoe never would have questioned Mal's shooting that man..."
She didn't! If you watch the scene that's actually in the movie you will see that that wasn't Zoe's concern; she stated that shooting that man was an act of mercy. Her problem was that Mal wouldn't let the man on the hovercraft. There were three important points in the actual scene that were not in your imaginary scene: 1. Zoe clarifies that shooting the man was an act of mercy; 2. That Mal, by not letting the man on the hovercraft was sinking too far into an unhealthy darkness; and 3. That part of Mal and Zoe's shared humanity was not leaving anyone behind.
This scene that you missed had an effect on Mal. He tries to dismiss it at first by saying "maybe that's why we lost [the war]", but it seems clear to me that he doesn't believe what he said; he's just saying something to end the discussion and pretend that he won it. But in the bar, after River goes super destructo, Mal steps away from the darkness he was descending to and brings River and Simon back, knowing that it is not right to leave them behind.
As for questioning Mal, that was a common occurrence. In the TV ep Serenity Zoe questioned Mal on going to Whitefall. She questioned Mal again in the valley. In the Train Job she expressed concerns about doing the job with the Alliance soldiers on board. In Safe she opines that life would be simpler without Simon and River. She does it all respectfully and tries to do it alone, but she does do it.
"Mal wouldn't have had to do half the yelling..."
Mal was yelling at Zoe and the crew in the first episode. When the discussion about dropping Simon and River off before Whitefall got out of hand Mal yelled to end the discussion. Later, when Zoe suggested that they didn't have to deal with Patience, that they could try their luck elsewhere, Mal yelled at her and the others in the bridge, then turned it into a good leadership pep speech. In Out of Gas Mal threw Wash against the wall when Wash wouldn't leave Zoe and return to the bridge. More yelling when Mal wants the emergency beacon signal extended. During Ariel Mal did far more than yell at Jayne when he concluded that Jayne tries to betray his crew. When it comes to running out of money or someone betraying his crew, TV Mal had established a pattern of yelling and/or hitting.
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More response to HKCavalier:
"...War Stories? Every last one of these people would die for him."
Not really. When Wash and Zoe are prepping for battle Jayne is mocking them. When he leaves the scene the impression is pretty clear to me that he's not going to go on a suicide mission. The next scene shows Book, Kaylee and Simon prepping for battle, then we see that Jayne apparently has changed his mind. What caused his change of mind? Not loyalty IMHO, but the odds increasing in his favor. And in Heart of Gold Jayne wasn't going to help Mal and the crew until he found out that whores were involved. Again not much loyalty to Mal.
While Kaylee tried to be brave in War Stories, in the final test she's demonstrated that she won't die for him. When it was just Kaylee and River on the ship Kaylee lost her courage and became a liability. This lack of courage on Kaylee's part also showed up in Objects, where Kaylee turns her back to Early, lets her arms be tied, lies down, and gives Early the location of River's room. Kaylee tried to be loyal but didn't have the courage when alone to deliver her intentions.
In the previous paragraph of your treatise, where you started to lose me, you engaged in your own fan fiction by believing, apparently, that River had already gone on missions before, when it's stated quite clearly in the movie I saw that River had not gone on any missions yet. While five months does seem like a long time before Mal uses River, it's not beyond the realm of possibility. And we also know in the Zoe questioning Mal scene that you missed that the crew was in dire straits financially. We know from TV ep Serenity that when the money gets real low Mal gets tetchy and takes more risks than he otherwise would. This is the setup for the FIRST use of River. Believing that she was used before, while being a sensible idea by itself, is your fan fiction. That Simon would have accepted anyone endangering River is also fan fiction and does not seem to supported by the series.
"When Simon clocked the captain, boyee!"
Well, let's see. When Simon jumped off the catwalk onto Dobson, boyee! When Simon wrestled with Dobson, boyee! When Simon grabbed the gun and pointed it at Dobson, boyee! When Simon, severely outnumbered, tried to fight the townies in Safe, boyee! When Simon fights with the Alliance soldiers in Ariel, boyee! Then when Simon chokes the Alliance soldier with his knee, boyee! When Simon jumps Early, TWICE, boyee! There's a fairly clear pattern in the series...when someone endangers River, boyee! Or was that all fan fiction too?
"Senseless pandering." Simon's feelings and sex with Kaylee.
I agree with the classist assessment of Simon, and this almost certainly will be a doomed relationship if Joss takes it anywhere else. But all during the series Simon was obsessed with protecting and curing his sister, and relationships were almost certainly not on the top of list of things to do. And of all the crew members Kaylee was the only one that seemed to like him. So, in the course of the movie, when Simon's two major problems, River's mental health and running from the Alliance, are solved, who wouldn't be susceptible to a little release? Think of the WW2 photo of sailor kissing the woman that was in Life magazine. Simon's World War was over, he won, and Kaylee's availability and true concern make the connection obvious to me; not deep and meaningful, perhaps for either one, but an attempt at a connection, fulfilling a need and celebrating life a little.
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Last part to HKCavalier:
"So why didn't anyone stay on Serenity when they got to Miranda?"
So why didn't anyone stay on Serenity when they got to the moon in Heart of Gold? You seem to be ignoring series precedent. Maybe on Miranda they remembered to lock the ship and leave the key under a rock.
"...little unexpected "out of character" things was part of that--"He's my hewo.""
To quote Simon from the first ep. "I'm confused...no, wait, I think you're confused." So are out of character moments good or bad? Your treatise seems to slam Joss for movie out of character moments, but you praise TV out of character moments. Are the movie out of character moments truly out of character, or just out of sync with your remembered version of the show?
"Neither death was of great consequence."
I agree with you on Wash's death . It was gratuitous, a shock for shock value only. But Book's death was necessary for the transformation of Mal. Just having Haven destroyed wouldn't have been enough for Mal to get belief and a mission, because all those other people at Haven and Whitefall, etc. weren't his crew. Book was a crew member, and was also a respected acquaintance. It was only Book's death, or another death within Mal's very small world that would have made Mal care about the bigger world.
"Zoe crying in Mal's arms...slightly out of character, but so meaningful."
Slightly out of character!? It would have been a full corruption of her character. Zoe was a "stone cold shong si shasho" from The Message. In the movie that I watched Mal, after the Haven slaughter IIRC, walked through some of the passageways of the ship and then paused and leaned on the bulkhead, straining ALONE with the responsibilities he's taken on. That's the most Zoe would've done, though she probably would have done it in her quarters, and maybe just a few sniffles before she brought herself under control again. There'd be no full Willow or Inara sobbing because she's far to disciplined to lose control like that.
All in all my favorite parts of the movie were the quiet parts, because Joss does those parts best. If there's another movie I hope he gets over the idea that it has to be an epic story. I understand his desire to get out the bulk of this story in the event there's no sequel, but I hope he changes track if there is a sequel. Just allow us to soak up the relationships because that's what Firefly came across as and was best at. I think we can agree on that part.
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GGreen, I don't know where to begin with you. You've obviously got a chip on your shoulder with these "refutations" of yours. I'm talking to normal people in a normal way here, what are you about?
When I said "Zoe never would have questioned Mal's shooting that man," folks here understood what I was refering to. Of course you are perfectly right, she didn't question the shooting specifically, so much as the shoving. It's not "fan fiction of my own" it's imprecission or what I'd call conversational metonymy. Kudos for being the only one who caught it, and the only one who misunderstood me.
To be precise, I think Zoe would have understood exactly why Mal didn't let that man on the mule.
And never did I say that Zoe never questions Mal's actions. Interestingly, all the examples you sight are examples of Zoe questioning Mal's actions from the standpoint of safety and prudence, never on moral grounds, never.
And holy-moly, I never said that Mal never yelled at the crew, how out of touch with reality do you think I am? How disingenuous was that "I was with you" line if you imagine I am so unfamiliar with our favorite t.v. show? LOL I felt that the frequency and beligerance of Mal's yelling in the BDM was excessive and presented, particularly to the uninitiated, a generally adversarial relationship with his crew which I found out of keeping with the relationship developed by the end of the 14th episode. I in no way suggested that he should sit them all down to tea and crumpets, only that the ratio of Mal's yelling to everything else in the movie needed adjusting as it felt gratuitous.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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i just read all of that. wow. i am now very satisfied. despite the fact that i loved the movie.
now allow me to totally patriot act on yo' asses- (don't whine where the feds can hear you and they're everywhere but here i thinks.) be sure to encourage others to see the film! just cause you didn't care for it- well- well- tell people to see it so joss can blow you away next time!!!
"yeah- she's gotta renew her license to patriot act. can i use patriot act as a verb?" -wash "ariel"
y'all certainly made some great points and hkcav. summed up the issues i had been pondering quite eloquently. but when all is said and done it really just is what you decided to take from it. 
shakespeare: more words than God.
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Someone thinks it was better than any Firefly episode? I don't think it was as good as any one Firefly episode.
Blind worship leads to cult thinking.
Like a cult, many are worshipping the movie in spite of its obvious faults.
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