A Modest Proposal...
POSTED BY: Thanatus
UPDATED: Saturday, October 8, 2005 00:26
VIEWED: 15989
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It's frightening. People didn't get it when they aired the original Star Trek series. Took em 20 or so years but they came around. They didn't get it when Star Wars first hit the theatres. Again, they came around when it was rereleased at the theatres. Now again, amazing and intelligent fiction in our midst and people just don't get it. This thread invokes Shakespeare, Van Gogh, Cultish phenomna of recent history, and on and on.
You guys are looking for meaning where there is none, missing what everything means when there is some, and boring me to tears. Kinda scary.
History repeats itself. Again.
XG
No such thing as gravity. The Earth just sucks.
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It always amazes me that people will inject themselves into conversations merely to say "I'm too good for this conversation, and you people just don't get it." Newsflash for everyone concerned...Shakespeare was just a really good pulp fiction writer that wasn't acclaimed in his own day; Van Gogh was a drug-addled painter whose works are loved, reviled, or overlooked; cultish phenomena is what seems to be driving people here...I'm not even sure the posts are being read all the way through. Anyway...my overarching points are these:
1) I never doubted the ever-present peril to the characters during the series...and yet none of them died.
2) As a TV show, Firefly worked and developed a huge and (maybe too) fervent fan base
3) Serenity, logically, should have followed that formula
4) People unwilling to question the execution of this cinematic endeavor are kinda creepifyin' and have a cultish air about them (sorry if that hurts)
5) In the end, we are talking about a TV show cum movie that had (and maybe still has) a lot of potential. But it's just that...a TV show and a movie, not a religion. Feel free to expect more of Mr. Whedon.
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Thanatus...the crazy people thing was meant lightly and as a joke and I am deeply and truly sorry I offended you and anyone else. Please accept my deepest regrets for any pain my posting might have caused you or your family and loved ones.
I never said it could not be discussed seriously. I said it was a movie to demonstrate that Joss never intended it to be real. Is it a movie I'm passionate about? Yes, and there are many others. But the movie reference means that it is not real. Real was your word not mine. Serenity is no less real than Saving Private Ryan. Both are movies and not real at all. SPR may feel more real but it is in fact just as fake. Unless you film the actors actually getting shot it is not real. You said I brought no academic source...what? Do I really need one to prove to you that vampires and intergalactic spaceships are fiction? Should I make references to Shakespeare and van Gogh as you did in order to substantiate my superior knowlege of the arts and therefore imply that my opinion is somehow more relevent instead of just acknowledging that Serenity is a seriocomical work of fiction never intended to be real, yet was attempted by Joss to seem as real as possible while staying within the realm and limits of the story and rating system. Nah I like my version better.
I don't know how smart you are, top 3 percent, but ya ain't weak
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This thread really needs a spoiler warning, Thanatus. Just to be safe. I'd hate for someone to be spoiled this close to release.
Select to view spoiler:
"Why not have characters faced with real challenges and difficulties that they have to deal with and grow through?"
Well, that's just the problem here: One of the greatest challenges a person can face and overcome is the death of a loved one. By not killing anybody, you remove one of those great challenges. By trying to save every character you dilute the power of the story. When people talk about Whedon's "realism," they aren't talking about his lack of scientific knowledge, his willingness to choose emotion over continuity, his poor math skills (it took them four seasons to get the vampire's ages right over on Buffy), and his general lack of perfection in creating a fully believable alternate world. When they talk about his "realism," they're talking about the fact that he is one of the few people willing to use that last great challenge to a character: death. Most shows and films, when they kill somebody, it's a second tier character or someone we've only seen in one episode. Whedon kills long-lasting characters so that we can see the rest of the cast deal with, overcome (or not) this last great challenge. So yes, he throws challenges at the characters that they have to deal with and grow through. Death is one of those challenges. Killing an important character may seem "easy" to you, but how many series or franchises really do it (especially in the middle of the run rather than at the glorious end)?
You say it seems so pedestrian, done only for shock value. Others have repeatedly explained elsewhere that this is not so (though perhaps you have not heard them), but I'll do so here again. Book had to die to get Mal to risk crossing the Reaver territory. The Reavers had been built up to be so terrifying, that nothing but a death close to home would drive Mal to risk it. Once people he cared about were dying, he realized he couldn't hide anymore. Nothing else would have done that for him. Book was part of his crew; the Sanchez brothers and the others weren't. If they got it, he would warn the others but keep on trying to hide. Only death could drive him to do that. Then there's Wash. He had to die for two reasons. One, I suppose, you could consider shock value. Whedon has said that the problem with TV especially is that you don't really get a sense of danger, you know the characters will be coming back week after week so instead of wondering if they're going to get out of this, you wonder how they're going to get out of this. So every so often, Joss will remind people that "nothing is safe" in his shows. It would have happened if "Firefly" had lasted, in happened roughly every other season on "Buffy" and "Angel". You can't become comfortable, that creates a distance between yourself and the characters (they think they're in danger, but you know they're not). By reminding you that "nothing is safe," Joss brings your emotions and thinking back in line with that of the characters. After Wash died, I was terrified--just like the characters were. Every time someone was injured, I was sure they were/would be dead, just like the characters feared. I was right there with them. By killing some, Whedon is bringing you closer to the rest, reminding you that these people don't know there the Big Damn Heroes of the movie and thus semi-untouchable. Instead, they're just ordinary people and death helps humanize them for us. Like any literary technique, it doesn't work all the time for everyone, but in Whedon's case it works most of the time for most people.
Oh, yes, the second reason Wash died. There is a great deal of talk towards the end of the film about "war." The BDHs go to war for what they believe in, expecting that at least some of them won't make it. Because that is true in every war. If were are to believe that this really was a war, then we have to lose something. Victory must be bittersweet, as it always is. Wash died a soldier. Some say his death was poin
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Shakespeare, pulp fiction writer of his day? I read nearly everything he wrote back in my college days, minus most of the sonnets and a few of his historys. That's kind of like calling John Lennon the Lawrence Welk of undergound Polka. Van Gogh? Misunderstood artist, or psychotic stalker who thinks it's sexy to lop off his left ear and mail it to his unrequited love? Etc.
It's funny. Someone could push this into a deep philosophical debate, write a screenplay around it and Hollywood would hail it as the best piece of drama since Ishtar (as long as they throw in some gratuitous violence and a nearly naked Jessica Alba).
XG
No such thing as gravity. The Earth just sucks.
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No,no,no, Early. Firstly, my apologies...and this goes for all. This medium can at times lead to misunderstandings and vagueries. please accept my apologies. Wasn't trying to be snobbish here...simply trying to communicate. Believe me, I don't spend my free time in galleries and the such. I appreciate the low brow, and even revel in it...Hell, I've even watched a couple episodes of the new Batllestar Galactica! (Sorry that was gratuitous :) ) Let me be clear...I really like Firefly, and accept Serenity as a decent sci-fi action adventure. As far as "real" goes...that's not even my word. Read it on countless posts with comments like "people have to die for it to feel real" and "people die in real life". I think we're on the same page here...I know I'm free to say "eh..." about the movie, and you and others are free to "love" it. I just wanted to highlight the inherent logical weakness of the "Joss knows best" arguement. Gene knew best, and we got Star Trek IV...Whales in Space. I just wanted to rant a bit about this blind faith in a writer's vision. Honestly, please read HKCAVALIER here http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13444 because I reaaly am just trying to say what he said better vis-a-vis the movie. I just wanted people to think about this blind faith issue. Again, Early and everyone...I apologize. I was out of line and just want to discuss some interesting issues related to this phenomenal property.
And Stake...well stated and well reasoned (beats the whole trust in the Master argument.) And no, I haven't read all the posts on the boards, so thanks for regurgitating for me ;). I can understand now why so many of you feel this is necessary. Having dealt with death myself, I'm much more interested in how a charcter overcomes adversity in themselves and those around them. we're gonna have to agree to disagree on the second "event".
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XG...I'm not sayin' the Bard ain't wonderful and all, but I think it's fair to say he's more appreciated today than then (by his peers anyway). Van Gogh...Yeah he was a freak with a penchant for absinthe and the dramatic, but he did a pretty good job at colorin'. As far as Jessica Alba goes...what wouldn't be made better by her being seen in it? :)
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I see your point. Quite entertaining. (Honestly, no sarcasm there.)
Why is it, though, that so many who didn't like Serenity jump to the conclusion that those who did are mindless, Whedon-fellating zombies, incapable of forming their own opinion on what The Joss presents to them?
Cuz, well, I think that's probably the case for some, but I imagine them to be the crazy fringe few.
Cheers.
无 党派 人士
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
I see your point. Quite entertaining. (Honestly, no sarcasm there.)
Why is it, though, that so many who didn't like Serenity jump to the conclusion that those who did are mindless, Whedon-fellating zombies, incapable of forming their own opinion on what The Joss presents to them?
Cuz, well, I think that's probably the case for some, but I imagine them to be the crazy fringe few.
Cheers.
无 党派 人士
HK...That's kinda what I'm getting at here. As someone who was diasappointed with the movie, I can tell you that it's a very lonely place to be. It just seems like so many of the Serenity huggers think people are out of their minds for not liking it, and those tend to be the vocal minority. Again, I liked the movie - on its own merits. It's more a feeling of disappointed that beset me more than repulsion. I am hearing reviewers referencing the rabid Browncoat fan base, and have even said that (we) are turning other genre fans away from the franchise. You know it's funny, Book was probably my favorite character, but I can accept his death. It just seems like the story and the franchise would have been so much better served by changed Wash (maybe paraplegic or something...I don't know), not a dead Wash. Does that sense of unrealised potential make any sense?
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