Discussion for the subject: What happened to my show, 'cause Serenity wasn't it?!
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 03:51
VIEWED: 33215
PAGE 5 of 11
Quote:
Originally posted by TheLurker:Quote:
Originally posted by Rakarr:
Lost was around 14 eps
Just to be anal and nitpicky (), Lost had 24 episodes the first season and Season 2 is scheduled for 23 eps.
and Jack's "24" had w.... well, 24 eps.
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Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.
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And Prison Break will have 22 episodes this year as well. It may seem like it is close to over, but it isn't. Also, they just announced today that My Name is Earl will have 22 episodes this season, too.
Prison Break and My Name is Earl are the two home runs of the season to me; with reunion being a triple; Threshold and Supernatural being doubles; and Invasion, Surface, and Killer Instinct being singles. None of the other new shows get a hit for me, but Nightstalker is still at the plate.
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Quote:Thanks for the compliments, XeroG. Yeah, it was a long post. Having had no idea how it would be received, I really didn't know if I'd have the stumach to split it up and deal with a potential fire storm on each and every point. As my dentist once told me, better to have the whole thing out at once.
Originally posted by XeroGravity:
There are political and philosophical dimensions to your entire analysis. You should tear apart each issue and get the point. Get to the point on each separate issue in a separate post. Too few people can wrap their minds around that much information, regardless of how interconnected each issue is.
But my worries were unfounded, I see. Thanks everyone, for being so decent and understanding. I'm glad it gave voice to some folks' disquiet over the BDM.
I'd like to speak to the idea floating around that we can't expect the BDM to be as character driven as the show. For one thing, Firefly was always an action show--it weren't no Masterpiece Theatre! Of course there are character arcs in t.v. that just aren't possible in a movie, but character arcs aren't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the story taking it's cue from what the characters know and feel about their world, rather than what we know and feel about their world.
(**Big damn spoilerific example**)
Select to view spoiler:
When Mal finds Book we have no idea how badly hurt he really is. We don't really find out until he dies, because his visible symptoms are consistent with any number of non-leathal though thoroughly debilitating injuries. Mal calls for the doctor whom we seem to have seen mere moments ago maybe 30 yards away. Where the hell was Simon? Answer: exactly the distance it would take for him to get to Mal just as Book passed away. Bad story telling, bad.
Here's my imperfect thumbnail of a character driven version. This is the kind of storytelling I observed in Firefly, episode after episode. The storytelling on that show was tight.
First of all, there are three character's points of view we need to be clear on, not just one. In the film version we only know as much as Mal gleans from the scene; what's really wrong with Book and what's taking Simon so long are distracting holes in the storytelling.
So anyway, here's my version of the scene. First of all, Serenity doesn't go to Book first. They go to, say, Whitefall. Everybody's dead. Then there's the scene with the Operative on the visiphone. That's when Mal realizes that Book could very easily be dead and they race to find out. Now we're worried about Book, wondering if he's okay.
And the next shot answers this with the scene he only describes in the movie. It's terrible, it's Serenity Valley all over again, the sky is black with violence, death is everywhere. Book is mortally wounded and then he shoots his killer out of the sky and falls. (How many times in the show did one shot end with a question that the next shot answered? That's good story telling.)
Now there's a time lapse (of course, the scene with Book is slightly out of sequence, a flash back really, because by the time Mal's talked to the Operative, the damage is done). Whedon magic. Something on the ship, maybe River being psychic, she looks at the captain and he sees in her face what he never wants to see. All she says is, "Mal." (You know, as if Book were saying it, kinda.)
Now we're on the ground with the crew and Mal sends everybody in teams to search for survivors. We're all so worried about Book at this point that the next few minutes are agony.
Then Book calls to Mal and we see him. He's in terrible shape. Mal calls for the Doctor and we know that he's a ways off. Of course, the scene is much shorter and pithier now that the heroic bit was shown instead of told, so we're not stuck with the coincidental timing snafu. Maybe there's a chance to give us a shot of Simon hearing Mal's call and tearing over to him as fast as his legs can carry him. Maybe a shot of him and Jayne running, both. Book dies.
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Well for starters I could not disagree with you more about Star Trek IV, I loved that movie.
Without getting into spoilers I thought Serenity was very true to the series and the fans. This is a movie not a television series. Certain things have to happen to advance the story along, to get from point A to point B to point C. If you don't have events happening that acts as a motor driving the story along then it comes off as forced and out of character. I think some of the more shocking events in the movie would have happened in the series, but probably more toward the middle to end of the second season.
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The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason!
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Were Firefly and Serenity wildly different?
Abso-friggin-loutely.
I've got to say I miss Firefly as well. The small insular world of that ship just trying to get from today to tomorrow and the simple struggles of that. We were allowed so much time alone with the thoughts of these characters. It was lovely.
Serenity is entirely different, but I don't believe it is so for the sheer benefit of fans.
Just to cover the Simon arc. A few points, first in Serenity the pilot, Simon was pretty slick and controlled, so much so he had Mal fooled into thinking he was the Alliance mole. He's no coward, and with time to prepare, esspecially months, I believe Simon could have pulled that one off. The whole "Stripping" line. That was a mistake. Plain and simple.
Do I believe Simon could crack and haul out to hit Mal? Absolutely Yes. Simon's been trying to hide her forever, and keep her out of danger. Mal throws her out into the spotlight, and puts her within arms reach of reavers, he might just get snippy.
Simon and Kaylee getting together. How is this pandering when they were setting it up for the ENTIRE run of firefly. However inept Simon was at wooing Kaylee, there was no doubt he had a good amount of desire to head that way. He thinks he's going to die, he spews out the one thought he wishes he had expressed. Cliche? Yes. Fan-Driven? Ehh...Did you really want these two to Ross and Rachel it for couple years, masterfully avoiding each others arms?
Still, your main point, I think is true. This movie is plot driven, rather than character driven. Plain and simple.
But i think the reason for that is because it's a movie, not because he tried to placate the fans. If anything, what may have been damaging to the movie was Joss's need to get everyone in. Browncoats would have loved a quiet film with slow revelations and lots of character development, but that wouldn't have been the franchise builder that Universal, and Joss were looking for.
Joss needed an accessable epic for the flick. The stakes got ramped up, and did the revelations. You could claim that Universal nudged Joss in this direction, but he himself said, "Television is about the question. Movies are about the answer." There was no time to set up mysteries, when he had so many answers to make with.
The nature of it being a movie, or at least, this kind of movie, an sci-fi adventure, dictated that there be an immediate problem and a delayed resolution. There isn't as much time available to mull and explore both the situation and the characters, there's just to much exposition and story that needs to come out.
If anything could really be pointed to as the main the source of Serenity's woes it's the fact that it derived from a television show that only went half a season. There are a lot of mysteries out there that needed tending to. River, the Reavers, the Alliance...all were left as open threads, all needing to be tied up in the movie. All this plot, and you need to set up the world, and the characters for the first time viewer. It's a clustermuck of work this movie needed to do. There's a reason why Spiderman 2 is better than the original, and X-Men 2 is better than the original. THese sequels don't have to do as much work. The world is set, the characters familiar. All they need to busy themselves with is a good story.
For another example, look at the Train Job, probably the closest analog to Serenity you will find in Firefly. That episode is rife with rushed characterization, because, well, that's exactly what Joss was at the time...rushed. Rushed to introduce the world, and the characters, and the intangeables, all again, all with a lot of FOX demanded action.
I don't think Joss is a rarified genius, but I do think he's a smart guy. He's also notorious for planning years of his fictional worlds into the future. If Joss is given the chance, another entry the story of the 'Verse will show the consequences of Serenity that I'm sure he's already dreamed up.
Am I a little dissappointed by Serenity
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Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Acting is pretty hard for non-actors and acting undercover when your life is on the line staggeringly so. But here’s Simon all steely-eyed and balls-to-the-wall cool fooling the feds. Remember Jaynestown? Remember when Mal asked him to pretend to be a buyer, as in the totally unsmooth “I’m a buyer” line? In Firefly, Simon’s steeliness developed slowly, painfully, realistically over many episodes, but he never became a good liar--just look at every dumb thing he ever told Kaylee. The Simon in the Alliance uniform is smoooooooth, and the Simon of Firefly is anything but smooth. As fan-fiction though, Simon’s impersonation is awesome--Go Simon!
Speaking of Ariel, check out Simon's performance there. Within the hospital, he is smooth, professional, and calm -- a good actor. Simon is nervous as "the buyer" because he's out of his element -- but disguise him as an authority figure in a "civilized" context, and he's able to handle it--it's familar turf.
Simon is definitely in his element, having grown up on Osiris in a seemingly aristocratic family and working as a surgeon in a prestigious Alliance hospital. He would have no problem playing the cold, intimidating authority figure to a sniveling underling because he would have grown up in that environment.
Also, keep in mind that in back story Simon has spent his fortune, and about two years, working to get River back. He had plenty of time to pick up all the skills necessary to do what he did. However, take him outside of the core worlds and he becomes a babe in the woods. That makes plenty of sense to me.
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Lost was 24 episodes, I have it on DVD.
Battlestar Galactica (remake, 1st season) is 13 episodes but it was essentially a mid-season replacement. Stargate SG1 and Atlantis are usually 22, but Sci-Fi splits them into two sections (one in the summer and the second starting in January), as they don't want to compete with new shows on other networks.
22 episodes is the new standard except for cable networks. Older shows like Star Trek (TNG, DS9 and Voyager) were always 26 (except 2nd season of TNG).
Knowledge is sorrow; they who know the most
Must mourn the deepest o'er the fatal truth,
The Tree of Knowledge is not that of Life.
-- Byron
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HKCavalier -
I wish there were a way to do a phantom edit and see your version of the BDM. I'm sure I'd like it much better.
When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not screaming and yelling like everyone else in the car he was driving.
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Mayhap its just me, but I did get a small taste of not quite right with the movie. But the second time I saw it, I figured out what it was missing. It was all high-tension, high-strung moments. We never had a "dinner table", "Uncle Natty story-telling," faux basketball game moment. And really the only spot we could have, because after which and even a bit before everyone was so tense about the Simon/River/Mal fight, was on Haven around the campfire, with Jayne playing guitar of all things. That could have been a good "Hey we're all a family here" moment, which is what the show was missing.
Of course is if there is more Firefly goodness to come it will be interesting to see how the dynamica changes and if the franchise survives that change.
I aim to misbehave. 
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HKCav's nailed it solid, cause that was prettymuch my exact response to the film, but no way no how could I have worded it that well.
That being said...
*Spoilerrific Parts Here*
Select to view spoiler:
Zoe does display a somewhat out of character emotional response to Wash's death, but I am kinda guessin you'd have to be a military type to catch it.
She loses her cool, leaves the defense line and goes berserk on the Reavers - which is a bad, bad idea from their tactical situation, and she very nearly paid for it with her life... normally levelheaded Zoe would have NEVER given up tactical advantage like that if she wasn't really torn up inside over Wash.
That's Zoe's way.. not break down and bawl, but start whuppin serious ass, and she wanted reaver blood right then and it overcame her normal frosty cool.
Anyhow, it's a rockin flick, but it ain't my Firefly.
-Frem
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