Discussion for the subject: What happened to my show, 'cause Serenity wasn't it?!
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 03:51
VIEWED: 33215
PAGE 4 of 11
Quote:Hey there Em. You might have noticed that my post was getting a little long,
Originally posted by embers:
...you complain that 'Serenity' was written to please the fans,
but in fact you are complaining that it didn't suit YOUR needs.....
so I really tried to streamline the thing and didn't get to qualify everything near as much as I wanted, but I did think I was pretty clear about what I was calling "fan driven" in art, namely: stuff only fans would care about or even in some cases notice. With Serenity, we're not talking about a couple harmless in-jokes, but major events that are cheated of meaning unless you are in love with the characters before you walk in the theater. In the pilot of the show, after less than an hour of setting up Kaylee's character, Kaylee nearly dies, might have died, and for a few astonishing moments seems to have died. It was masterfully handled, painful, sudden and real--and would be if you'd never seen the show before. And then, o'course, it was really psychotically funny.
Quote:I saw this coming. I honestly don't need you to be schooling me about death, believe me. Didn't we all read Flowers for Algernon? Do we really need to learn these things from Firefly? And besides, you're only half right. IRL death is indead senseless, random, and sudden except when it's not and there is always time to grieve. If you live long enough, you'll learn that without the movies. Sorry to be so blunt, but I've read so much of this hogwash about this kind of "lesson" to be learned from the BDM and it makes me nauseous.
...you wanted movie deaths with meaning, and speeches, and time to mourn...
but in RL death is senseless, random, and sudden...
and I think Joss is a fan of the RL arbitary death.
Quote:Yeah, I didn't think the Zoe in Mal's arms idea was the best either frankly, but it was exactly the kind of scene I was missing in the BDM. I would have liked just one scene where a character surprised me with their choices, you know what I mean?
And Zoe would NEVER have cried in Mal's arms, she never did during war and there is no way their formal relationship (she always calls him 'Sir') would allow her to do it...
ever
Quote:And I say the point of Firefly was the characters and the action. Not saying Joss didn't have his work cut out for him, but I don't for a second think it was impossible. As I said, the family that he'd taken 14 episodes to build should have been shared with the general public so non-fans would have a chance of falling in love like the rest of us; he should have had the guts to continue from where he left off with Objects in Space--a new audience doesn't need to get a refresher of the series; they just need to know who these people are now. I think he could have squeezed it in. Serenity is not a movie any stranger is gonna fall in love with--they'll think it kicks ass, that Joss has got guts and style, but they'll never know or care who the BDH's are. The way I see it, the plot alone, with the operative, the reavers, River's climactic action scene was plenty of action for any movie and Joss could have filled up the rest of the movie's running time with heart.
Movies have to keep to the point.
well, at least action movies do.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Rakarr:
Lost was around 14 eps
Just to be anal and nitpicky (
), Lost had 24 episodes the first season and Season 2 is scheduled for 23 eps.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
*SPOILER FREE*
Good topic, Chrisisall. Serenity was Not our show, Firefly. But that's OK. It wasn't supposed to be.
That's also not saying I didn't love every minute of it. After my first viewing, I was struck by how different the movie was. There was so much happening that there wasn't enough time to emotionally reconnect with any of the characters. I walked in expecting a bigger version of the TV Show. While I was a little disappointed leaving the theater, I felt — assuming other movies aren't made (and I sincerely hope we do get more stories) — it was a good closer to the story. My wife said afterward, "I'm not sure how I feel about that." I said, "I thought it was great." She responded, "I liked it too, but it was so different."
I enjoyed my second viewing better. Got a bigger sense of the scope of it. It IS a movie, and it felt like it. I especially loved Mal's speech in Miranda, "You all got on this boat for different reasons." Felt like he was talking to us Browncoats as well as his crew.
Just thinking about it makes me want to see the movie again. And I plan on it.
I hope all browncoats in every state will work to organize further meetups each weekend to keep Serenity in the top three grossing movies for as long as we can. I can't imagine what Joss has in store for them next.
"You're either in or you're out, and I'm playing to the in."—Greg Dulli.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
HKCAVALIER-
Amen. You put it so well. Thank you.
When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not screaming and yelling like everyone else in the car he was driving.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I think it's fair to say that the characters that remained true to the show the most were Wash, Zoe, Mal, Jayne, River and Simon.
Book wasn't there enough to really say if he was 'true to form' but mostly I'd say yes.
Inara definitely wasn't... she seemed more like the 'lost little girl' at the end of "Heart of Gold" rather than the strong character she's always been.
Kaylee really got washed over. She's providing comic relief through nost of the film. That whole "love will keep us together" theme is something near and dear to Kaylee's heart... as expressed through her love of Serenity, before Simon is even an issue.
Honestly though, Joss only has 2 hours to get all this character interaction that we are all used to out to an audience who had never seen the show... I think he did a bang-up job.
Really, launching any feature with an ensemble cast is tough enough... which characters are 'main' which are secondary? Other than Mal, that question was open-ended with Firefly... everyone has their little moments of brilliance.
You can't really do that in a 2 hr movie.
Things they had to change: Simon's breaking River out... for the movie it's simpler to re-write that and show Simon isn't without some guts, where his sis is involved. The safety word. Book provides a Physical 'safe place' in the form of Haven, rather than a philisophical discussion in the galley (a good change I think). Inara being away gives a chance for the Operative to escalate what he will do to get River (Again, plot-wise it works)
Now how it WASN'T Firefly: not as western as the series... ie cows, horses, gritty guitar playing low in the background. Not enough cussin' in Chinese.
How it was cooler: wow those reaver were kinda scary after all. Big special effects. Bigger guns.
How it can continue: That's not the only secret River knows, just one of many... hidden programming even Simon is unaware of. Re-ignition of the Independent movement... but rather than all out civil war with big ships and armies a clandestine 'rebellion' fought by our BDH's.
"Guess you broke into the wrong rec room."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I wouldn't agree that either death in the movie was either pointless or random. It has nothing to do with learning lessons, and all to do with storytelling:
Book - Book seems to be the only character (both in the show and the movie) that Mal will talk to on a personal level... about things beyond "ship matters." The conversations that they have in the movie cut directly to the "faith" issue that has been a large part of Mal's character from the first scene in the pilot when he kisses a cross before going in to battle. As Book points out in the movie, though, faith isn't just about God. His last request is that Mal believe in something, anything. Book's death isn't random or pointless. His death is the one death that could center Mal on a purpose. The death of Kaylee or Inara would have damaged Mal on a different emotional level. Book's death focused him on finding a way out of the hole they had been put in... it hammered home that this wasn't going to be something that they could get out of by running away or even standing and fighting. Mal was going to have to be willing to push himself and his crew to the verge of death to avoid them, and all of those that they cared about, being hunted down and killed. The faith thing works on two levels - 1)Mal has to believe that getting the message about the Reavers out is worth dieing for. 2)Mal has to believe enough in himself that he can get it done. There are constant jokes, in both the show and the movie, about how Mal's plans usually don't work out so well. Mal knows this, but he also knows it's up to him to keep coming up with them. He has to believe that he can get it done. Book's death is the only character death that would have driven Mal to the place he had to be in order for the events of the rest of the movie to take place.
Wash - Wash's death is necessary for a different reason. Its purpose is to alert all of us, and all of the characters, that no one is safe. Zoe even asks if they think any of them will make it out alive. After Wash is killed, there is genuine fear from the audience when Zoe is stabbed, Kaylee is hit with darts, Jayne is shot, and especially when Simon is shot. For the uninitiated, it serves notice that Whedon will kill off a central character. If you haven't seen the show, you probably don't know that Book was a central character, and killing side characters is not a big deal. But a central character being killed? That's a different story. For folks who have seen a lot of Joss's work, especially the finale of Angel, there's definite fear that more than 1 of the BDH's will be killed in the final battle. And for those that are veteran Sci-Fi viewers, that know that Firefly is a tip of the cap to Blake's 7, there's a real fear that they all might die. Wash's death hightens the tension and suspense for the rest of the film.
Now, having said all of that... I do agree that there probably was too much catering to the fans. I didn't need to see Simon and Kaylee together at the end of the film. I would guess Joss felt he needed something positive to happen at the end, something to counterbalance the funeral. There were a lot of in-jokes, a lot of things that could have been done better. A lot of that, I think, can be placed squarely on the fact that film is different than television. Could the opening have told a different story? Sure. But that's not the story Whedon wanted to tell. He has said from the beginning that he wanted Firefly to be darker and more grim. I don't think making it so dark that he killed to "family members" was catering to the fans. If Jayne had broken into "The Hero of Canton" while playing guitar in the crew's 1st visit to Haven, that would have been catering to the fans.
Basically, I understand where you're coming from. I think there probably was some catering to the fans, but not to the level that you've asserted. No, the movie isn't as character driven. That's tough to do in a 2-hour span, as a opposed to a 14-hour span. Sure, some movies manage it. Typically those are movies being directed by veteran film makers, not
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
KHCavalier...
I disagree with little of what you've said. Some points are "debateable", but then ALL points are debateable. You're psychoanalyzing the film. Sorry it's just too much to chew on. Kind of like a debate on a religious book (bible, koran, torah, baghavadgida, etc.). It's endlessly involving, and hence endless.
There are political and philosophical dimensions to your entire analysis. You should tear apart each issue and get the point. Get to the point on each separate issue in a separate post. Too few people can wrap their minds around that much information, regardless of how interconnected each issue is.
Just a thought.
XG
No such thing as gravity. The Earth just sucks.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Still keeping within the subject matter of this thread, I would like to compare the BDM and the TV Series to literary forms.
The BDM is like a novel: it is the story of the single most important thing in the character's life. This is one reason why sequels are hard to do, either in movies or novels, because how many "most important" things can one have in one's life?
Each episode of the TV Series was like a short story. A short story is interesting and important but it is not the most important event in the character's life. We were used to this type of story and the BDM is simply on a bigger scale.
The novella (short-novel, AROUND 20-40,000 words) although very rare in general literature, and increasing rare in SF literature, is considered by some to be the perfect length for SF. It gives you the extra needed space to introduce your SF idea without the extra scale and development needed for a full novel. The TV Pilot Serenity 1 & 2 is the equivalent of a novella. It's running time is between 1:20 and 1:30, compared to :42 of an episode and the 1:59 of the BDM.
The TV Pilot Serenity is one of my favorite episodes and it may be because of the scale: bigger than an ordinary episode but smaller than the BDM. In another thread, I've speculated about the possibilities of Made-for-TV movies if the Serenity box office is not good enough for sequels. How does anyone feel about Made-for-TV movies of our show?
***************
"'Course, there are other schools of thought."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I wish I could know what Joss is thinking about all of this. (How the movie is doing and what loyal fans are saying.) Is he saying:
1)"Yes! It worked just as I wanted. Some loved the movie some are hurt by it. Just as I planned."
2)"What's wronge with these people? Can't they see what I was doing? If they can't see it then they just don't get it and I don't care."
3)"OMG. I didn't know it would have this sort of impact. Should I start practicing 'Would you like fires with that?'?"
4)"Take that you SOBs!" (Now does he mean the FFFans, Fox, The 'Verse in gerneral?)
5)"I should have stuck to the small screen."
6) a combination of the above.
When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not screaming and yelling like everyone else in the car he was driving.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
err... HKCavalier... sorry for typo
XG
No such thing as gravity. The Earth just sucks.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME