Major Spoiler and I'm calling Joss out
POSTED BY: fireflygal
UPDATED: Friday, October 14, 2005 18:37
VIEWED: 62576
PAGE 15 of 23
Quote:
Originally posted by rodash:
Thanks Fireflygal for the spoiler. Wash and Zoe are my favorite characters. I have been awaiting this movie since the day they cancelled Firefly. Now, with this news that Wash is killed off; all of my excitement has just waned and I will not be waiting in line to see the movie now. I can't watch Wash die, knowing he won't be coming back. Maybe someday when the pain of this is healed I will watch it on DVD but I just can't watch it right now..
Rodash
I'm sorry, what? It's a bit harsh to blame someone for spoiling you when it was in a thread marked 'Major Spoiler' and begun with the words 'DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU HATE SPOILERS!'. You really have no-one to blame but yourself.
Nevertheless, if you think that your excitement has waned, see the movie. Excitement, thy name is Serenity (seen it twice, both times I was shaking from adrenalin for at least the last hour)...
In addition, why wait for the pain has healed to see the movie?? The wound will just be reopened as soon as you witness The Moment. Why not get it over with when it arrives on our cinema screens, seeing it as you were meant to, 15 feet high? Plus if you see it in the cinema there's all the more chance that Zoe and Wash will reappear in your life some time in the future (if only in flashback in the latter's case...)
'The question seldom addressed is where Medusa had snakes. Underarm hair is an even more embarassing problem when it keeps biting the top of the deodorant bottle.'
-Terry Pratchett
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I'd assumed she was genuinely thanking for the spoiler? I can't imagine someone complaining about a spoiler in a thread marked spoiler.
I figured it was, "Thanks for the spoiler, you've allowed me to save my time and money."
And if this spoiler has traumatized that person so much that they will not see the movie... well, then, you really ought not to see it. Delicate minds and hearts ought not to face the white-knuckled excitement of Serenity.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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I just wonder if all of you who agree with what Joss has done, would still agree, if it was Mal or Inara who was killed instead of Wash or Book? Would you still believe that Joss is a genius, and not question anything he does? Killing one of those two would have REALLY been brave; but he didn't do that. I didn't think that either had to die, to make it realistic, to make it tragic. It was only done to hurt the fans. Non-Browncoats will not be affected in the same way. Jayne will now be watered down and supply the "voice of reason" that Wash had done. Book supplied us with mystery, compassion, faith and hope. The chemical balance of the ENSEMBLE cast, where each of us had a character that we identified with, is gone.
I'm new here, but I just thought that I would posit my question to you all...would you feel the same if Mal or Inara had been killed? If you feel that Joss is right in ANYTHING he does, then you would have no more problem if they were killed, than Book and Wash.
Quest5227
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Quote:
Originally posted by quest5227:
I just wonder if all of you who agree with what Joss has done, would still agree, if it was Mal or Inara who was killed instead of Wash? Would you still believe that Joss is a genius, and not question anything he does? Killing one of them would have REALLY been brave; but he didn't do that. I didn't think that either had to die, to make it realistic, to make it tragic. It was only done to hurt the fans. Non-Browncoats will not be affected in the same way.
I'm new here, but I just thought that I would posit my question to you all...
Quest5227
Yes, that's right, Whedon just did it to hurt the fans. The fans that he's constantly praised and lauded for being the reason he's been able to make this in the first place. How he must hate us.
If it had been Mal or Inara, and done well in a way that made sense in context, I would probably feel exactly the same as I do about Wash and Book. However, as it was pretty much Mal's story, it wouldn't have made an awful lot of sense for him to die before his story was complete, IMHO. Book's death was a catalyst, as others have pointed out, galvanising Mal into action when previously he had just been running. And Wash died to increase the sense of danger and conviction that anyone could perish. Worked for me.
(And, incidentally, why would killing Inara be any braver? She was pretty peripheral to the story, probably more so than Wash, and Book's relationship to the Captain had way more emotional resonance in the film. A lot about Inara was very interesting, and Morena Baccarin is gorgeous as hell, but in many ways she's the *least* interesting character on that ship. Again, IMHO. Anyway, I digress.)
What gets me about many of the naysayers pointing out that people didn't have to die is the insistence that Whedon uses it as a cliche. Yes, it is true that he has killed characters before unexpectedly, but surely the greater cliche is our protagonists surviving almost insurmountable odds unscathed; surely here Whedon is *defying* the norm. Yes, you could argue that in Firefly and other of his works his characters still survive most of the time in ridiculously hazardous occasions, but the fact that they do drop dead on occasion at least alleviates that a bit. It's a Catch 22 situation. You can bet that if no-one died people would be complaining all over the place that there was no sense of tension, that it all seemed too neat. Rather how I felt about Revenge of the Sith in fact. We knew who would die, we knew how. The result: 'meh'.
Okay, the death of Wash absolutely *will*not* have the same emotional impact on the casual viewer as it has on a fully signed up Browncoat, but it will, for that casual viewer, help ensure their attention. This is not a fluffy reality where all our heroes make it, unlike so much of the chaff out there.
For the record, I do not worship Joss Whedon, I do question things he does; many things about Buffy and Angel, and even a few things about Firefly and Serenity, piss me off (I would list some if I had the time; email me if you *really* care). But these little things didn't stop the heart-wrenching thrill I felt for almost two hours in the cinema. The bad outweighs the good by a considerable margin; I would *never* claim there is no bad, because there *always* is. But I can tell you this much, it's fucking better storytelling than 95% of the crap out there. Sturgeon's law, pure and simple.
But yes, it is painful, and I think, obviously, that's what many people are having problems with it. But when was the last time you were moved by something that didn't have a little bit of pain mixed in? I can't make anyone like it who didn't, but I think you should at least give it a chance, if you at all had any respect for the craft that went into the series.
Anyway, sorry if I came on a little strong there, but as you can probably tell, I feel rather strongly about this. I also do not like the implication that if we possibly think the deaths were a good move for the sto
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Jamiec: I respect your position. I'd like to e-mail you directly, but we'll have to continue this discussion another time. I've got to be away from my computer until tomorrow. Is there a way to reach you directly, or would you rather continue here?
a) when I said "hurt the fans," I meant to make us feel pain. I don't think newbies will feel that as we did.
b) when I said Killing Inara would be braver, I meant that I believe that a great many of us are waiting, and have been waiting for Mal and Inara to get together. Killing her would make that impossible, and I think many fans would be dissapointed that they never got together.
c) On Firefly, the crew had a great many close shaves, and yet none died. I felt that killing off not one, but two, in the very first movie, leaves you with less to work with in the sequel. And as I mentioned, I felt that the chemsitry was one of the best things about the show.
I concur with FFG that we should all support Serenity, and I plan to do just that. I didn't hate the film, I just disagree with some of the authors choices.
Finally, I have been moved by happiness as well as tragedy. I would have preferred this movie to be happy, and then make me sad for the sequel. That's all.
quest5227@yahoo.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by quest5227:
Jamiec: I respect your position. I'd like to e-mail you directly, but we'll have to continue this discussion another time. I've got to be away from my computer until tomorrow. Is there a way to reach you directly, or would you rather continue here?
a) when I said "hurt the fans," I meant to make us feel pain. I don't think newbies will feel that as we did.
b) when I said Killing Inara would be braver, I meant that I believe that a great many of us are waiting, and have been waiting for Mal and Inara to get together. Killing her would make that impossible, and I think many fans would be dissapointed that they never got together.
c) On Firefly, the crew had a great many close shaves, and yet none died. I felt that killing off not one, but two, in the very first movie, leaves you with less to work with in the sequel. And as I mentioned, I felt that the chemsitry was one of the best things about the show.
I concur with FFG that we should all support Serenity, and I plan to do just that. I didn't hate the film, I just disagree with some of the authors choices.
Finally, I have been moved by happiness as well as tragedy. I would have preferred this movie to be happy, and then make me sad for the sequel. That's all.
quest5227@yahoo.com
Thanks for such a reasonable response to my rambling and occasionally aggressive post :-) I'll continue the discussion here, no worries... to answer your points one by one:
a) If that's what you mean, then fair enough, I agree with you; or at least, I agree to the extent that it is part of the reason Whedon wrote it. As I pointed out above, I do believe The Moment has an effect on casual viewers, even though not as emotionally significant; apart from anything else it's a 'chucklechuckleohmygodhe'sdead' moment which will at the very least surprise anyone who hasn't been spoiled.
b) To that extent I agree that it would indeed be brave to kill Inara and/or Mal. However, I don't think it's any braver than killing Wash, in essence destroying another relationship that was superbly handled in the show and, had the show continued, would doubtless had many more twists. From what I heard from Whedon at Edinburgh and have read elsewhere, it adamantly wasn't an easy, pat decision - there was real heart-rending involved.
c) You have a very good point about the close shaves in the series; in fact, one of my major problems with the show (there aren't many..) is the very fact that, practically once every couple of episodes, there's a character at death's door, yet no-one pegs it. That's why I felt the film redressed the balance, and marked it out from just being a two-part episode (for reference: Star Trek Insurrection). The stakes were upped significantly, and that's what it needed to make it as a film; it could not have just been a movie about another heist-gone-wrong; fans would love it, mainstream audiences would go 'that's all very well, but what's the point?' (and yes, I agree that mainstream audience have not yet been properly tested as to how they will respond, but I hope and believe they will respond more positively to the approach taken by Serenity).
I agree utterly that chemistry between the cast is one of the best things about the series, but I don't think this will be diluted by the deaths of two members. I think it opens up fascinating avenues for exploration between various characters.
Maybe there will be less to work with in a literal sense that there will be two less voices involved, but the fact is that nine main cast members makes for a pretty top-heavy cast for anything under three hours. Hell, it's pushing it for a tv series! It's amazing that they packed in as much character interaction as they did in 14 episodes, much less surprising Whedon wants less to work with in the sequels. Less voices to serve, less voices to do a disservice to. Bear in mind that despite the brilliance that the cast chemistry was, there were episodes that pushed various members almost completely out of the limelight,
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As sorry as I am to see Wash go (he was one of my favourite crewmembers), the almighty shocked "GASP!!!!" that filled the cinema I was in was an incredible pay-off!
Death is like that sometimes - comes from nowhere, for no reason and strikes at someone you love, taking them before you even have a chance to say "good-bye".
I mourn the loss of Wash, but am pleased with the reaction this particular storyline twist created...
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No, I meant thank you in a good way. In the last 4 years I have lost 3 very close family members; I do not want to pay to see 2 more die - that's all.
Enjoy fellow Browncoats.....but I am done!
Rodash
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Quote:
Originally posted by rodash:
No, I meant thank you in a good way. In the last 4 years I have lost 3 very close family members; I do not want to pay to see 2 more die - that's all.
Enjoy fellow Browncoats.....but I am done!
Rodash
Ah, right; I didn't realise that was the case and apologies if I came across as insensitive. That's a very understandable reason and I'm sorry for your loss.
'The question seldom addressed is where Medusa had snakes. Underarm hair is an even more embarassing problem when it keeps biting the top of the deodorant bottle.'
-Terry Pratchett
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Rodash - sorry for your loss.
I have some sympathy for your point of view - I had no forewarning, and after I saw the film, I was depressed for a week.
But rest assured that, first of all, their deaths are not arbitrary or manipulative - they serve a greater purpose than impressing the newbies. They may not be heroic in the traditional sense, but (more major spoilers follow)
Select to view spoiler:
if the character decisions that lead to their deaths hadn't been made, the 'verse would be much worse for it in the long run. Because of Book's death, Mal decides to stop running. Book's last words inspire him to find something worth fighting for - something that could affect the entire 'verse. Wash, in turn, dies helping him ensure that that something is brought to light.
Though Book was a victim, he made sure he took out some of the Alliance bastards who killed him. Also, some suggestions are made that he might have been an Operative much like the one that orders his death - so, in a sense it could have been his past catching up with him. Wash knew what he was getting into, and his last act before dying was landing a crippled Serenity, ensuring that everyone else lived.
Secondly, I've heard that Joss Whedon is determined to bring Ron Glass and Alan Tudyk back for the sequels. We'll be seeing them again in some form or another.
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