Major Spoiler and I'm calling Joss out
POSTED BY: fireflygal
UPDATED: Friday, October 14, 2005 18:37
VIEWED: 62576
PAGE 13 of 23
Commanderadama, Sweetesthat, one reccomendation.
Please, please go see the movie before passing judgement.
My friend and I, for the third preview screening this summer, took my friend's mom with us, as she adored the show as much as we did. We'd already seen the second showing this time, and my friend (not being the most subtle creature in the universe) accidentally let it slip that a character died. He sorta tried to take it back, but it was out there. His mom basically said if anyone died, she would be so mad she wouldn't go see any sequels or anything ever again.
Her FIRST WORDS after the end of the movie were "I can't wait for the next one."
There's a HUGE difference in the concept and the execution, and until you see the film you have NO IDEA how well it's used. And, also, how do YOU know that Wash's death isn't for some larger purpose? I mean, Buffy's mom's death seemed kinda pointless in the episode The Body, but for the rest of the season motivated a huge arc. We don't have the huge arc yet - that's next movie. Of COURSE the death will be important - Zoe's story next film is something that I'm sure will be absolutely incredible, and the last scene of the movie already has a surprising character development as a result of Wash's death that I guarantee you won't expect.
Also, you're making one other mistake in your reasoning - you're assuming that the movie is just another episode. Let me explain. If Wash had died in War Stories, in the same way he dies in Serenity, it would have been cheap. It would have been wrong. I would have had all the problems you do here. The movie is approximately 100x as intense and danger-ful as War Stories. It is completely impossible to explain how much more urgent and powerful the film is...you just have to see it. It's not that Joss uses Wash's death as a technique to drive up the tension so he didn't have to use others...he uses all the others, too. And the situation, the movie as a whole, both needs and justifies all of them.
I mean, the death isn't going to work for everyone, as ffg's vociferous, repetitive posts continue to drive home on a regular basis. But if all you know is that Wash dies, that's very different from knowing the circumstances surrounding it, and the results of it. In MY opinion, they more than justify it, they make it absolutely necessary for the movie to work.
Please see it and make up your own mind.
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I just want to echo Thrawn's setiment:
I understand why people who have been spoiled are mad. That's why I hate spoilers, they tell you part of the story, but don't let you see it in context.
What I don't understand is the people who said: I "heard something about the movie that I hate, so I'm not going to see the movie". No matter what you think you know, please go see the movie and judge it yourself. Afterwards feel free to hate it and argue about why it sucked as much as you want. But don't judge a movie based a spoiler.
No matter what happens, I bet there is at least one small part of Serenity you will enjoy. I'd hate for you to miss it just becuase of you disliked something you thought you knew, becuase until you see the movie, all you know is heresay.
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Well, from what I heard from Joss, Wash wasn't going to survive beyond season 2 of the series and the movie represents what was going to be the season 2 finale. So, Wash's death was planed before the series was even cancelled.
Book being Mal's mentor and father figure was an obvious character to die at some stage in the series as well and Book would have been the hardest character to write into a movie series. I think that the death of the two characters was done as a kind of transition from TV series to movie series.
It could have been worse, before I saw the movie somebody posted on a message board that Kaylee died. But even that wouldn't have stopped me from enjoying what is an absolutely awesome movie.
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Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:Quote:
Originally posted by CommanderAdama:
I'm terribly disappointed with Serenity. I looked forward to it since I first heard it was coming out, but I stumbled upon the spoiler that two main characters were going to die, and out of curiosity I just had to find out who, and I did. Now I'm not going to see the movie in the theater. This was a mistake. As far as I'm concerned Firefly died when the series was canceled. People have said that we owe Joss. Nope, not true at all. He owes us. Fans were the ones who kept it going for the time it did and who caused a movie to happen, sure Joss wrote the story, etc., but that wouldn't have happened if fans hadn't shown support and now to kill characters. Oh heck no. Some have said it adds to realism. I don't agree - um - the Earth is gone, they live on a space ship, not so real right? No. You DON'T need to kill off a character. That's cliche is series and movies now. Who doesn't do it? If I wanted realism I'd step out the door. I hope that there are no more movies after this one. What'd be the point. I don't support that, or this movie. It's not Firefly. Remember Firefly. Yeah - there were shootings and close calls, but it was fun and our people got away in the end. All in all I think Joss was wrong. And he needs to realize that. If people support this then it's only going to make Hollywood think that y'know it's alright to kill off the good guys. I wouldn't accept this movie. You're just saying that well, okay, you didn't do it right, but I'll take it. I'm not going to. Unless they do it right (which I know won't happen) Firefly died for me when it was cancelled.
I agree, he didn't have to kill off characters to make it real, but I believe you may enjoy the movie anyway. I'm not happy but, what's done is done and I still think maybe we should support the actors and Universal. It really is still Firefly, CommanderAdama. I'm sure Joss realizes that many fans are unhappy, if we all support Serenity maybe he'll somehow make amends in the next one. If you hadn't read about the spoilers, you'd have gone to see it at least once, right?
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I do plan to see Serenity. In someways I want to boycott it, but when I see the previews I generally shout out "Yeah!"
But knowing that they kill characters, my thinking is going to be the same afterwards, about the characters. Other things I have read about the movie (Non-spoilers about clothing and sets) have turned me off of it. They souped it up for the big screen. All in all I'm going to see the movie. I won't like the death of the characters. In fact I'll hate it. Seeing it in context won't change anything. Even if they had done it in Season Two I would hate it and not want to watch it. Besides the deaths, the movie may rock, I don't know. I'll have to see. I also hope he does something with all the characters in the next installments. And not just in the form of flashbacks. But otherwise, I'm done with Joss Whedon.
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So, this thread is about people getting mad that Joss killed Wash. There are lots of other issues flying around, about realism and such, but those are not as I see it the heart of the matter. We can fling justifications and descriptions of our emotional states at each other for 150 more posts, and nothing will change.
The heart of the argument here is "Wash is dead and that shouldn't be true, and Joss needs to be held accountable for this error in judgement."
Towards this end, let's just get two things clear, shall we?
1) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN JOSS OWES YOU AN EXPLANATION FOR IT. He did this movie the best way he could, and since it was a movie, he had as much time and space as he needed to get it perfect. This is the best story he could tell. You can tell, reading from the Visual Guide, that he agonized over EVERY WORD. He did his royal best, and then more again on top of that. You can't fault him for that, you just can't. Period.
2) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN THE WHOLE FANBASE DOESN'T EITHER. As a point of fact, the majority of the fanbase would agree that killing Wash was necessary. More people in this thread approve than are mad, and SUBSTANTIALLY more people who have actually SEEN the movie approve than are mad.
So I'm sorry that you're pissed off, but you need to stop with this "Joss needs to realize..." crap. He made a hard decision that was the best one he could make in his own head, and that most people agree with. Doesn't take away your right to disagree, or to stop watching his stuff, I'm not saying that. It just doesn't make him a bad person, and it doesn't mean he's cheating the fans as a whole.
Let me put it this way. Joss owed *THE FANBASE* the best story he could tell, and *THE FANBASE* loves it, in general. Joss owes *YOU PERSONALLY* no more than the fact that the previous sentence is true.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SweetestHat:
I'd like to agree with FireflyGirl, Stroess, Wibbled, PizmoBeach, FlyingTams and CommanderAdama on this one (even if that puts me in the minority--heaven knows I'm used to it by now). I got spoiled by accident, and knowing that Wash is going to die just about broke my heart. In fact, I'm highly tempted to skip the movie now (but I won't.)
It's true that killing off characters does up the excitement level of a film. It's true that in such a dangerous and deadly situation, it may be ridiculous to expect everyone to survive. It's true that Joss tends to disrupt happy relationships, and almost no-one is safe on his shows. It's all true, and I guess I'm glad to see so many people are pleased by his work.
All these truisms just don't work for me, though.
How many times in all the episodes of Firefly did crew members get shot, stabbed, sliced, beaten mercilessly, electroshocked, asphyxiated, put into chemically-induced comas, punched, and generally mistreated-- and survive? So, it's not so unusual that some of us thought the people we've come to know and love would all make it.
I also don't buy the notion that the only way to truly grab an audience is to kill someone. Firefly grabbed us all without killing main characters. Even though I kinda knew Mal would live through "Out Of Gas," I was still riveted to the screen, wondering what would happen next, and how he'd get out of it. Sure, death raises the stakes; but I feel Joss and Crew are so incredibly talented writers, they could have made the plot exciting in other, non-lethal ways.
And yes, Joss has a history of killing off some very beloved characters. I'm a devotee of both Buffy and Angel, so I'm quite familiar with the list. But... if I'm going to lose a character who's become dear to my heart, I'd like it at least to be something meaningful. Tara died, but it was for a purpose-- to move the story along so Willow would become the Big Bad. Anya died fighting to protect others and destroy evil. So did Doyle, Cordy, Wesley and Gunn-- all of them died making a difference. Maybe that's why I'm not so upset about Book's passing-- he went out fighting. But for Wash to die out of sheer bad luck strikes me as empty, meaningless, and unfulfilling. It's something lesser script-writers have used so much it's become a cliche-- something to jerk the audience around. I really did expect better than such manipulation from Joss and Serenity.
And yes, death is realistic. But don't we watch TV and movies to get away from reality for a while? We've all known pain, suffering and loss in the Real World. Real happy endings don't exist. Life's not like that. Well, I don't watch movies to see life in all its tragedy. I see movies to release tension, not cause it. I see movies to be happy, not heartbroken. I'm a fairly new Browncoat, but I've been looking forward to Sept. 30th with great anticipation... and now, I'm just not. Is it too much to have a happy ending, just once?
The argument's been made that "they're Joss's toys and he can break them if he wants to." And he's got a history of playing rough. He doesn't owe us anything, we all should have known better... Yes, yes, yes, yada yada yada. But when a series shifts so quickly from playful Firefly to deadly Serenity, it's hard not to question, or feel some sort of disappointment-- that "rug has been pulled out from under us" feeling, to borrow that clever phrase. It's not so much a criticism of Joss, as it is our deep involvement with and love for the characters. If we didn't love Book and Wash so much-- if Joss & Co. hadn't done such a magnificent job creating them in the first place-- then none of us would be so upset. So we question, and complain, and cry, and demand answers that will somehow lessen the pain. Joss put in those deaths to get a reaction, after all...
And even though I'm upset, I'm still planning on seeing the movie at least once (and if I cNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
So, this thread is about people getting mad that Joss killed Wash. There are lots of other issues flying around, about realism and such, but those are not as I see it the heart of the matter. We can fling justifications and descriptions of our emotional states at each other for 150 more posts, and nothing will change.
The heart of the argument here is "Wash is dead and that shouldn't be true, and Joss needs to be held accountable for this error in judgement."
Towards this end, let's just get two things clear, shall we?
1) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN JOSS OWES YOU AN EXPLANATION FOR IT. He did this movie the best way he could, and since it was a movie, he had as much time and space as he needed to get it perfect. This is the best story he could tell. You can tell, reading from the Visual Guide, that he agonized over EVERY WORD. He did his royal best, and then more again on top of that. You can't fault him for that, you just can't. Period.
2) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN THE WHOLE FANBASE DOESN'T EITHER. As a point of fact, the majority of the fanbase would agree that killing Wash was necessary. More people in this thread approve than are mad, and SUBSTANTIALLY more people who have actually SEEN the movie approve than are mad.
So I'm sorry that you're pissed off, but you need to stop with this "Joss needs to realize..." crap. He made a hard decision that was the best one he could make in his own head, and that most people agree with. Doesn't take away your right to disagree, or to stop watching his stuff, I'm not saying that. It just doesn't make him a bad person, and it doesn't mean he's cheating the fans as a whole.
Let me put it this way. Joss owed *THE FANBASE* the best story he could tell, and *THE FANBASE* loves it, in general. Joss owes *YOU PERSONALLY* no more than the fact that the previous sentence is true.
You have made your point several times but as FFG has already said there are many people in this thread that agree with her and you don't have to like it and no one is twisting your arm to read it. So why do you feel you have to continue making an argument against those of us who do hate what happened? We may be in disagreement with you but we have a right to feel the way we do. I have said earlier that I have been here since DAY ONE. I have gone through all of the pain and suffering that the rest of you have endured with the series, etc. I have a right to my opinion and if you are so unhappy with the way we feel why can't you let us commiserate in peace and go on your own way. You don't have to be rude because we are in a disagreement, just leave us alone.
And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job
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Quote:
So I'm sorry that you're pissed off, but you need to stop with this "Joss needs to realize..." crap. He made a hard decision that was the best one he could make in his own head, and that most people agree with. Doesn't take away your right to disagree, or to stop watching his stuff, I'm not saying that. It just doesn't make him a bad person, and it doesn't mean he's cheating the fans as a whole.
Word word word.
Quote:
Let me put it this way. Joss owed *THE FANBASE* the best story he could tell
This is pretty much what it much boils down to. Well said.
"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
So, this thread is about people getting mad that Joss killed Wash. There are lots of other issues flying around, about realism and such, but those are not as I see it the heart of the matter. We can fling justifications and descriptions of our emotional states at each other for 150 more posts, and nothing will change.
The heart of the argument here is "Wash is dead and that shouldn't be true, and Joss needs to be held accountable for this error in judgement."
Towards this end, let's just get two things clear, shall we?
1) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN JOSS OWES YOU AN EXPLANATION FOR IT. He did this movie the best way he could, and since it was a movie, he had as much time and space as he needed to get it perfect. This is the best story he could tell. You can tell, reading from the Visual Guide, that he agonized over EVERY WORD. He did his royal best, and then more again on top of that. You can't fault him for that, you just can't. Period.
2) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN THE WHOLE FANBASE DOESN'T EITHER. As a point of fact, the majority of the fanbase would agree that killing Wash was necessary. More people in this thread approve than are mad, and SUBSTANTIALLY more people who have actually SEEN the movie approve than are mad.
So I'm sorry that you're pissed off, but you need to stop with this "Joss needs to realize..." crap. He made a hard decision that was the best one he could make in his own head, and that most people agree with. Doesn't take away your right to disagree, or to stop watching his stuff, I'm not saying that. It just doesn't make him a bad person, and it doesn't mean he's cheating the fans as a whole.
Let me put it this way. Joss owed *THE FANBASE* the best story he could tell, and *THE FANBASE* loves it, in general. Joss owes *YOU PERSONALLY* no more than the fact that the previous sentence is true.
ABSADOODLE!
"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity
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Quote:
Originally posted by DucesTecum:
You have made your point several times but as FFG has already said there are many people in this thread that agree with her and you don't have to like it and no one is twisting your arm to read it. So why do you feel you have to continue making an argument against those of us who do hate what happened? We may be in disagreement with you but we have a right to feel the way we do. I have said earlier that I have been here since DAY ONE. I have gone through all of the pain and suffering that the rest of you have endured with the series, etc. I have a right to my opinion and if you are so unhappy with the way we feel why can't you let us commiserate in peace and go on your own way. You don't have to be rude because we are in a disagreement, just leave us alone.
And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job
I'm sorry; I thought I was being clear. I do disagree with you, but I'm not arguing that anymore, I acknowledged in my previous post that was getting nowhere.
My last post was to say that even if you disagree, it doesn't mean Joss is evil or bad, or Joss owes you anything more than what he gave. You can dislike the movie all you want; I've realized, much as I may want to, I can't dissuade anyone from that. It's the rest that still bothers me.
But to answer your first question, I kept posting because I LOVE this movie, more than anything else I've EVER seen. I feel so strongly about it that I was trying to do everything I could to help other people have the same experience I did. If it made you mad, I'm deeply sorry; I've stopped now anyhow.
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