Real World Event Discussions
Katrina-related accusations and the info behind them
POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 03:57
VIEWED: 7777
PAGE 5 of 11
Saturday, September 17, 2005 3:44 PM
Canttakesky:
Not everyone in southern Louisiana was evacuated to the SD/CC. It wasn't the only place water was needed. Until we find out where the three trucks of water actually went, we can just take guesses as to whether it would have been better to leave it in Jefferson Parish, send it to the SD/CC, or send it where it actually went.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Saturday, September 17, 2005 4:08 PM
Quote:The report that the governor did not request federal help until after the hurricane was later proven to be erroneous. Blanco DID formally request federal help before the hurricane struck. The link is on one of the Katrina threads somewhere. Maybe I'll find it for you later.
Originally posted by jaif:
- What about the national guard?... The delay on the governor's part is practically criminal, in this regard.
Quote:First of all, I have seen the media point the lens at all three levels, all over the place. For example, TIME magazine had a whole issue devoted to "system failure," where they analyzed the failures at all 3 levels. The federal level is not exactly blameless in prevention either, since they cut funding for levee work as well. All 3 levels had failures both in preventing and in responding to this disaster.
With all due respect I think you are focussing your lens in the wrong direction, like most of the media...the proper place to point your lens is at the local and state govts.
The focus of this thread is to verify accusations against FEMA. In investigating Geezer's question whether FEMA was indeed the responsible party, we discover that local and state authorities were responsible for some of the post-hurricane malfeasance, rather than FEMA. Geezer was absolutely right in asking us to verify our facts before hurling blame. I don't see how this could be looking in the wrong direction.
The more I read, the more I see a pattern. If one looks at the actions and results only (ignore the rhetoric and excuses), the pattern is not one of incompetence or confusion amongst the 3 levels of government. It is a highly cooperative network at the local, state, and federal levels that accomplished the same results: 1) contain the evacuee population, and 2) deny them relief--until such time that the powers that be decided it was enough.
To contain the evacuee population, the local police refused exit out of the city. The national guard refused entry into the city. FEMA refused private and extra-departmental rescue efforts. Nobody comes in, and nobody goes out. They all worked together to accomplish this.
To deny the evacuees food, water and medical attention, the local police shot looters and confiscated what little food and water the homeless were able to get. The state dept of homeland security refused the Red Cross, and probably the other relief organizations as well. The national guard [correction: it was FEMA officials] at the airport would not allow the doctors and nurses to provide medical aid. FEMA blocked (ahem, "diverted") private relief efforts such as the Wal-mart water trucks. The highly publicized military convoy arriving in the city 6 days after the hurricane still had not distributed their relief supplies by nightfall. (See Geraldo Rivera's and Shepard Smith's news broadcast in a link in a previous post.)
Whether they had good reasons or not for what they did individually, they did seem to cooperate and coordinate well to accomplish the same results. There were no reported fights amongst the 3 levels of government on this matter. It was as if they were all following the same invisible response policy: no exit and no relief aid for the evacuees. The horrifying outcome was the creation of a squalid, violent, concentration camp for 40K innocent American citizens in modern day America.
Now you can say we should focus on disaster prevention rather than disaster response. I say the response was so wrong and so unnatural that it would be immoral for the rest of us to not question it.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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Saturday, September 17, 2005 4:22 PM
Quote:We are not talking about southern Louisiana. We are talking about the city of New Orleans. Jefferson Parish is a section INSIDE the city of New Orleans, right next to downtown! The water trucks were sent to the city of New Orleans, and turned away from the city of New Orleans. How does that not impact the residents of the city of New Orleans in the SD/CC?
Originally posted by Geezer:
Not everyone in southern Louisiana was evacuated to the SD/CC.
This is my last post on this argument. If you don't understand that Jefferson Parish is a subsection of the city of New Orleans, then you are either beyond my ability to communicate or being deliberately obtuse.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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Saturday, September 17, 2005 6:54 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
This is my last post on this argument. If you don't understand that Jefferson Parish is a subsection of the city of New Orleans, then you are either beyond my ability to communicate or being deliberately obtuse.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
Fine with me. You apparently think the water was dumped in the sewer or otherwise wasted. I don't know, and so reserve judgement.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Saturday, September 17, 2005 7:08 PM
Quote:The only reason you keep harping about where the water went is because it could possibly justify FEMA decision to keep New Orleans residents from getting the water offered to them. Their given reason sounds like a load of horseshit to me, so I don't really care where the water went. I only care where the water DID NOT GO.
Originally posted by Geezer:
You apparently think the water was dumped in the sewer or otherwise wasted.
Read my lips. Wal-Mart offered water to New Orleans. FEMA turned it away from New Orleans. At least forty thousand residents in New Orleans continued to be without water for 6 days after the hurricane, despite being offered 3 truckloads of water. None of these are assumptions.
Maybe they had a good reason, maybe they didn't. I don't much care. I just want them to be accountable for their decision, and let a jury decide if they were justified or not. Preferably in criminal court.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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Saturday, September 17, 2005 10:54 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Read my lips. Wal-Mart offered water to New Orleans. FEMA turned it away from New Orleans. At least forty thousand residents in New Orleans continued to be without food and water for 6 days after the hurricane, despite being offered private aid. None of these are assumptions. Where the water actually went doesn't concern me. It only matters where it didn't go.
You want to give FEMA the benefit of the doubt that they had a good reason for keeping 40K American citizens from getting the water offered to them. I want to put FEMA officials (and all local and state officials as well) on criminal charges, and let the jury decide if they had a good reason or not.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
Well, actually Jefferson Parish ordered 3 truckloads of water, based on Mr. Broussard's comments on Meet the Press. Wal-Mart didn't offer them. FEMA redirected it from Jefferson Parish. Maybe to another area of Metro New Orleans, maybe not. Maybe it saved more lives where it went than where it was originally supposed to go. At this time we don't know. Your statements are just guesses.
Does your "guilty until proven innocent" philosophy apply only to the government, or to everybody? Have you stopped beating your husband? Where were you when the California power grid went down? Explain yourself. If not, it's your fault.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Sunday, September 18, 2005 1:33 AM
Quote:I think then it is obvious we don't have any common ground upon which to continue this discussion.
Originally posted by Geezer:
Maybe to another area of Metro New Orleans, maybe not...your statements are just guesses.
Quote:I never said they were guilty. That requires a conviction, which is up to the jury. I only want to see them indicted. Oh, hell, at least investigated.
Does your "guilty until proven innocent" philosophy apply only to the government,
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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Sunday, September 18, 2005 3:39 AM
Quote:
The report that the governor did not request federal help until after the hurricane was later proven to be erroneous.
Which has nothing to do with the statement you quoted; "federal help" has nothing to do with "national guard". The governor is the commander of the state's national guard, and it is the governor's job to call them up and give them orders.
Quote:
The focus of this thread is to verify accusations against FEMA
The subject and opening sentance were not FEMA specific. The OP then went on to ask FEMA related questions. I'm pointing out that I believe this is misdirection.
This is the United STATES of America. We have states for a reason. This automatic reaction I've seen in the media to immediately jump at the federal level is dangerous, IMO.
I'll go farther, though. I think you in this thread, and the media in general, are micro-managing decisions that you shouldn't. I think we, the public, should reserve our criticism for the big decisions that arch over the little ones. Things like:
- When did the governors declare a disaster?
- When did the president declare a national disaster
(note both of these open purse-strings, and both appear to have been done at a reasonable time)
- When did FEMA (edit: bah, had FEMA on the brain. I meant homeland security) declare an event of national significance. (This is the key failure for FEMA. Pretty much all of the rest follows this.)
- When did the various governors call up their national guard? Note that a governor's first priority, by definition, is security. This decision, therefore, provides key insight into how a governor is doing their job.
- When did the Mayor issue a mandatory evacuation order? Note that by most reports that I've seen the Mayor delayed this order by half-a-day, at least.
I'm not going to worry too much about the mis-steps below this level. I firmly believe in putting people in charge, and letting them manage. If mistakes were made by their organizations, then they should correct them, not the court of public opinion.
However, I do feel it's very important to hold these officials accountable for the key decisions that they make that start the process. In all cases - fed, state, and local - I can see what appear to be key failures that should, IMO, be the direction of public inquiry. Furthermore, it appears that all three simply could not grasp the potential scope for disaster that should have been abundantly clear before the hurricane hit.
One last note; unfortunately our media is pathetic, focussing on New Orleans and virtually ignoring other areas that were also devestated. However, the little I've seen seems to indicate that Mississipi's Governor, Haley Barbour (Not sure how that's spelled, I just know that he's someone I don't like politically), seemed to make the right calls that a Governor should make, though he too seemed unaware of the scope (e.g. he pre-positioned 1000 guard but later needed roughly 10,000 or so).
-Jeff
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Sunday, September 18, 2005 4:19 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I think then it is obvious we don't have any common ground upon which to continue this discussion.
I agree. You want to hang someone out to dry, proof or not. I want to find out what really happened. No common ground. Let's drop it and go on to something else. We're just wasting bandwidth.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Sunday, September 18, 2005 2:33 PM
Quote:I want to find out what really happened too. Our lack of common ground comes not from our different intentions, but from our interpretation of available evidence. I choose to take into account that Metro New Orleans was mostly evacuated, and therefore it is reaching to entertain the possibility that 3 truckloads of water might have gone to a needier section of New Orleans that is NOT the SD/CC. We weigh different parts of the same information differently. Our premises differ, so our conclusions will never cross paths. That is what I meant by no common ground.
Originally posted by Geezer:
I want to find out what really happened. No common ground.
Quote:Now who's making groundless accusations? Tell me I'm wrong, but don't attack my intentions or my character. You're right--we're done.
You want to hang someone out to dry, proof or not.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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