Okay, it was a mistake to let go of Season 4, but now on to 5!
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Monday, September 19, 2005 04:42
VIEWED: 15224
PAGE 7 of 8
God, so much good stuff since last I checked into this thread! I had never heard of the 7-3-0 theory, but I absolutely love it and believe that that is the sort of thing that Joss might do. I've always wished (just a little bit) that the series had ended with season 5.
Whoever recapped the episode, thanks for the recap and the astute observations as to what was acutally being said. Now I want to see this again - I always prefer it when people argue around the problem, although I guess it can get frustrating... And, as I check, I see that it was written by Marti Noxon, which begs the question of how she lost the capacity for nuance in less than a year.
I can't exactly remember what Xander said to Anya at the end of that episode, but I do remember loving it.
"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann
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Several things I just have to get out
1) i like the 730 theory
2) Buffy SOOOO did not ever REALLY and TRULY love Reilly - at least, not after he lost his crazy steroid-induced powers. Maybe Reilly was flirting with becoming a vampire so he could live up to Buffy's expectations...? Feel free to shoot me down.
3) Seasons in order of their fantasticness:
6,2,3,1,4,7,5
4) One of the best Dawn moments ever is when Willow is evil and Dawn goes to find her and Willow does a frustratingly accurate whining impression of Dawn. I kinda wish Willow had just taken her out right there. Anybody on board with that?
Curse your suddent but inevitable betrayal!
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Yosaffbridge::
2) Word. I don't think Reilly ever really challanged her.
3) My hatred of the Crackwhore Willow storyline prevents me from placing 6 any higher than 5th. Still, I can see where the love comes from.
4) True that.
"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann
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Remember this is an ongoing S5 discussion, so plot points beyond S5 are spoilers for certain people...
Back to the point:
"So I guess after her talk with Xander, Buffy realizes she IS in love with Riley (so I guess that means he's not the rebound guy) and then she runs to stop the helicopter, and so on."
I thought the helicopter-running was a bit dumb. It's fairly clear that Buffy isn't in love with Riley, so why would she suddenly change her mind? It seems like a bit of a cop-out to have Riley get away before they can actually deal with the reality of the situation: even if Buffy had caught up to him, nothing has changed. And from a plotting perspective, if Xander had only spoken a little bit faster she'd have easily caught the helicopter...
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Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
Yep, they sure did. I was watching S5 not that long ago and I realized that Riley's vamp "visitations" was probably meant to be a metaphor for Riley screwing around on Buffy. I guess I'm a bit slow on the uptake (unless I'm wrong about the metaphor thing). But I still didn't buy his motivation for engaging in that specific activity. Nor would I buy it if Riley had really screwed around on Buffy.
The show always tied sex and vampirism together, but I feel that Riley's break down and the eventual break up of him and Buffy was a little more detailed than that and a long time coming. Riley was groundless from the moment he was forced to face the truth about the Initiative, he never found a purpose after that.
And he resented being called "destiny's girlfriend", it hurt him that Buffy had a purpose and he didn't. Their relationship was never one built on pure honesty and openness to begin with. From the very start they lied to each other, Buffy often held back from him to pander to his need to feel bigger and stronger and, later, she was never able to open to him when she needed it.
I haven't watched Buffy for too long, but my original thoughts on the matter are thusly...
A New Man:
Riley has to face the fact that Buffy is a Slayer. She is strong, stronger than he is. He's stuck in the old fashioned ideal that men folk protect the women folk. He's a soldier, he should be stronger. His own frustration at this drives Buffy into a subterfuge of her own, hiding the full extent of her strength.
Goodbye Iowa:
*Riley has to deal with a lot of things. His whole world is crumbling, everything he thought he was fighting for, everything he lived for. His whole basis of self esteem was built around the fact that he thought he was doing good, that he had a higher purpose. The truth hits him hard and he's in danger of free floating without a foundation. Added to this is the pressure of withdrawal, a vicious detox that is affecting him both mentally and physically, and a deep and valid grief for Maggie Walsh. He did not know her as evil and as such, feels the need to grieve, yet his brain is telling him that he has no right because she was, ultimately, working for the bad side. At the end of the episode, Riley is near his tether, ready to explode and he cannot take any further slight to Maggie, he certainly does not want to listen to Adam, who might have told him some valuable information. He's confused, angry, frustrated and he doesn't know who to trust. By the end of the episode, however, after having been injured and forced to reflect, he is left with one true image: Buffy.
Superstar:
Buffy and Riley are still feeling the after effects of Faith's visit. Buffy feels betrayed and just a little bit insecure about Riley and the way he will see her now. She can't relax and she can't let go of her insecurities. Riley is frustrated, he's apologized for what has happened and there's not much more he can do. Neither is talking to the other, which just compounds the problem. It's only until Jonathon gives them both some good advice, namely: talk to each other; and things worth while take a little time and effort. Once they take this advice, talk to each other and realize why the other is feeling the way they do, then they can move past the stasis that their relationship has been in.
The Yoko Factor:
Riley is running a little close to the edge. He's been forced to abandon the very thing he devoted his life to, after finding out that it was a little less than noble. Completely groundless in this aspect, Riley must then deal with the truth about Buffy's romantic history, another thing that shakes his already weakened 'humans good, demons bad' beliefs. All of his friends are dying left and right. He's at a point where he barely knows which way is up, when Xander lets slip with further truth about Buffy and Angel's past. When Angel turns up in Sunnydale, Riley is more than ready to assume he's evil and to fight him. An act which cements his
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Great analysis! And if you're doing that all from memory it's all the more remarkable. You've even convinced me that Riley had more motivation to go to the vamps than I originally had thought, although still not 100% sold on it, but I can see it more. Maybe if Riley had explained it as well as you have in "Into the Woods" I would have been more accepting.
But still it's frustrating to watch that scene in "Into the Woods" without seeing Riley put it point blank to Buffy "Are you in love with me"? I know Buffy wasn't feeling the love for Riley right at that moment. So her answer would have undoubtedly been "I don't know".
Early in the season, when Riley confides to Xander that Buffy doesn't love him (and I kept an ear out as I was watching Seasons 4 and 5 and I don't think Buffy ever says those three little words, whereas I think Riley does--but I could be wrong), regardless of what happened between that scene and "Into the Woods" I felt we were being set up for a bigger payoff where Riley would eventually get around to telling Buffy what he told Xander. And as I said before, that never happened. As much as Riley and Buffy had it out in that scene they didn't have it out enough.
And also I thought the "Run to stop Riley scene" was just too melodramatic. And when Xander said "Run", I was halfway expecting him to say "Run Buffy! Run like the wind"! Before that I thought the Xander/Buffy scene was actually pretty good as a scene. It was the scene that before that where I had my misgivings.
Buffy did take Riley for granted. Why was it up to Xander to tell her that instead of Riley? Other than writer's convenience, I mean?
But through it all, Sarah looked great! I swear, Season 5 is her absolute best when it comes to that. Trivial I know, but I keep noticing that when I watch that sequence when she dusts the vamps and she and Xander have their "chat".
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Jacqui, you are awsome.
You not only know your stuff, but you're one hell of a good writer!
Sometimes illiterate Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Jacqui, you are awesome.
You not only know your stuff, but you're one hell of a good writer!
Stop... you're going to make me blush... but, then again... eyes? Go on... eyes...?
That's what I had for the Haven guides. I've done every episode of Angel and most of Buffy, and now the first three Firefly.
That's what I love about the Joss world, though, there's so many layers. You can just watch it, or you can delve deep into everything.
*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"
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Quote:One thing that kept me from REALLY getting into it. I kinda just said a silent 'see ya' in my head.
Originally posted by Grounded:
And from a plotting perspective, if Xander had only spoken a little bit faster she'd have easily caught the helicopter...
Can you say, 'manipulated'?
Puppet Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:One thing that kept me from REALLY getting into it. I kinda just said a silent 'see ya' in my head.
Originally posted by Grounded:
And from a plotting perspective, if Xander had only spoken a little bit faster she'd have easily caught the helicopter...
Can you say, 'manipulated'?
Puppet Chrisisall
It's one of those moments that makes you want to kick the TV in. Of course that only works if your TV has survived Buffy vs. Dracula... ;)
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