Katrina-related accusations and the info behind them
POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 03:57
VIEWED: 7777
PAGE 4 of 11
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"So you've just explained how you can feel free to continue to believe things that can't be verified. Smooth move, Rue."
Actually, I said to use 1) original documents (rather than news commentary on what might or might not be in the documents), 2) foreign news sources (generally have less bias) and 3) original news items from the time period in question (along with links, I posted extended quotes which could be googled to pull up secondary sources.) If worse came to worse, one could always pay the fee for an archived item. It would just not be freely available to anyone via link.
I base my beliefs on verifiable information. And you?
Oh. I thought you said all the original sources had already been corrupted or archived, and were no longer available to validate anything. Perhaps it was the insult at the end which made me be less than 100% objective in my reading.
I also try to base my beliefs on verifiable information, and suspend judgement until I have it. In this world of 24/7 news, blogs, reposts of reposts, "news" sites with obvious political agendas, politicians of all stripes making political rather than factual statements, etc. it sometimes takes a while for the facts to shake out. Some probably never will.
Edit to add: It was so much easier back when Walter Cronkite gave you all the news you needed to know in 30 minutes a day.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:Where do you think the residents of Jefferson Parish were? They were flooded out and relocated to the Superdome and Convention Center. I'd say refusing those water trucks impacted those sites negatively.
Originally posted by Geezer:
Neither the Superdome or the Convention center are in Jefferson Parish, where Mr. Broussard is president, So reallocating the water didn't impact those sites negatively. I too would like to know where it went.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
But the trucks were supposedly turned away from Jefferson parish for another destination. Maybe the Superdome, since there were lots of folks there? Just supposition, since I don't have that info. I'd still like to know where the trucks went.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:Right, they were diverted to somewhere with a greater need. I reiterate my question: where was there a greater need than the SD/CC? Why didn't they get that water? (We know they didn't because their first supplies were those highly publicized military convoy trucks 5-6 days later.)
Originally posted by Geezer:
But the trucks were supposedly turned away from Jefferson parish for another destination. Maybe the Superdome, since there were lots of folks there? Just supposition, since I don't have that info. I'd still like to know where the trucks went.
Whether Jefferson Parish and the SD/CC were the same population or different is neither here nor there. The fact of the matter is SD/CC didn't get the water they could have gotten had those Wal-Mart trucks been let through.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Right, they were diverted to somewhere with a greater need. I reiterate my question: where was there a greater need than the SD/CC? Why didn't they get that water? (We know they didn't because their first supplies were those highly publicized military convoy trucks 5-6 days later.)
Whether Jefferson Parish and the SD/CC were the same population or different is neither here nor there. The fact of the matter is SD/CC didn't get the water they could have gotten had those Wal-Mart trucks been let through.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
Okay, let's try again.
Jefferson Parish is south of New Orleans. They were the ones who ordered the water from Wal-Mart. Jefferson Parish does not contain either the Superdome or the Convention Center. The water was not originally bound for the Superdome or Convention Center, so it couldn't have been diverted from them.
I got no idea so far where the water went. Maybe to hospitals, maybe to people who were trapped elsewhere, maybe to fill FEMA hot tubs
. Assuming that because it didn't go to Jefferson Parish or the SD/CC it wasn't well-used is just that, an assumption."Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
The fact of the matter is SD/CC didn't get the water they could have gotten had those Wal-Mart trucks been let through.
It's worse than that. The Red Cross and Salvation Army had relief convoys ready to go to the SD/CC before Katrina hit. They were deliberately kept out by the STATE Dept. of Homeland Security.
Here's a link to the story as reported by Fox's Major Garrett:
http://www.radioblogger.com/archives/september05.html
You need to click on the September Archives link and then find on this page "Major Garrett" (twice)
Here's an excerpt:
Quote:
Thursday, September 8
Major Garrett updates us on the Red Cross AND the Salvation Army being blocked from helping by Louisiana state officials
HH: Making an encore appearance, and we're very grateful for it, Major Garrett of Fox News Channel. Major, you certainly made waves yesterday. Perhaps the most reported story in America was yours. You followed up on it tonight. What has your investigation into the Red Cross relationship with the Louisiana Department of Homeland Security revealed today?
MG: A couple of things. First of all, it established on tonight's Special Report, that it wasn't just the Red Cross. It was the Salvation Army. Both agencies, both organizations were ready, prepared, pre-positioned, eager, but were thwarted in their efforts to bring supplies, basic supplies...not everything these people needed, but core supplies to the Superdome, and then eventually, the convention center. Why? Because the New Orleans Department of Homeland Security said look. Our plan is to evacuate these people. Marty Evans, the President and the CEO of the American Red Cross, said on camera...you don't have to believe me. Believe her. You can read her own eyes, saying look. We were told if we came in, we would create an atmosphere that would lead people to stay, and give them the feeling that they should stay. And the state did not want that.
And for those of you who wouldn't believe Fox News if they said the sun was going to rise in the east tomorrow, this is from the American Red Cross web site:
Quote:
Hurricane Katrina: Why is the Red Cross not in New Orleans?
• Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.
• The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.
I don't have a date for this post, but it was early last week while the people were cut off.
Fivver
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Quote:Yes, let's do try again.
Originally posted by Geezer:
Okay, let's try again.
1. Jefferson Parish is both west and south of Orleans Parish. Orleans Parish is where the SD/CC are located. Check out map here:
http://www.jpso.com/jp-map2.htm
According to a map I found in Time magazine, the eastern side of Jefferson Parish, the part adjacent to Orleans Parish, was flooded as well. This map online can give you an idea of the areas impacted by the hurricane, which includes Jefferson Parish.
http://www.publichealth.hurricane.lsu.edu/convert%20to%20tables/New%20
Orleans%20Study%20Areatf.htm
2. Which parish the SD/CC were physically located in is neither here nor there. The question is WHO was living inside the SD/CC? It is reasonable to assume that the evacuees at the SD/CC were not only residents of Orleans Parish, but also residents of the rest of the New Orleans metropolitan area, including Jefferson Parish which also suffered flood damage.
3. Imagine for a second that you are the President of Jefferson Parish. A water truck arrives for your residents. Where ARE your residents? Most have evacuated the city. Some are in their undamaged homes with running water. Some are in their damaged homes with no water. And the rest are, yes you guessed it, in the Superdome and Convention Center. Now let's say you are in the position to accept this water. Where are you going to send it? The folks in undamaged homes don't need it. The folks in the damaged homes are either waiting to be rescued or are free to leave the city to search for water. The Jefferson Parish residents who most desperately need the water are, yes you guessed it, in the Superdome and Convention Center. If you are lucky, you might be able to deliver some to the folks still stuck in their damaged homes, but the most efficient thing to do is to send the water to your residents dying of thirst in the Superdome and Convention Center.
4. The rest of the parishes in the New Orleans metropolitan area are in the same position. Their residents are either evacuated, free to evacuate now, staying in undamaged homes, or (uh huh) dying of thirst in the Superdome and Convention Center.
5. So you, the president of Jefferson Parish, are told FEMA turned the water truck away, presumably to send to someone who needs it more than you. Now wouldn't you ask, "Who the hell needs it more than the Jefferson Parish residents in the Superdome and Convention Center. ?" Thirsty Orleans Parish residents? Well, they are in the Superdome and Convention Center. Thirsty St. Bernard parish residents? They in the Superdome and Convention Center. Thirsty St. Tammany parish residents? Yep, they are in the Superdome and Convention Center. So where could they have sent it that had a greater need for the water than the Superdome and Convention Center?
6. Now finally, for argument's sake, let's imagine there were no Jefferson parish residents in the SD/CC. Let's imagine they were all evacuated or living in their damaged/undamaged homes. FEMA tells you, listen, there are people who need the water more than your parish--we're going to send it there. Where do you imagine those needier people are? Uh huh...the thirsty folks in the Superdome and Convention Center. Did they send it there? No. Either way you slice it, that water should have gone to the SD/CC, either intended directly or diverted there. And FEMA prevented that from happening.
[Amended to add: My husband just thought of a much simpler way to explain what I'm trying to say. The water trucks were not sent to Mississippi. They were not sent to Baton Rouge. They were sent to New Orleans, and turned away by FEMA. Maybe it did go to an area of greater need than New Orleans. But it remains that it was intended for the people of New Orleans, and the people of New Orleans (the most desperate of whom were in the SD/CC) did not get it. ]
I just saw a story on Headline News about the medical personnel and patie
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FEMA ice truck convoy sent on twisting, weeklong route to hurricane storage depot
Quote:They'll get it right one of these days!
WOODY BAIRD Associated Press Writer
(AP) - MEMPHIS, Tennessee-About 200 (TWO HUNDRED!) tractor-trailer trucks with ice and water for victims of Hurricane Katrina took a convoluted, weeklong trip to a storage depot in Memphis, partly because of what the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers called "miscommunication."
http://news.findlaw.com/ap/o/51/09-13-2005/5c2d000aa3064d5d.html
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Everyone,
With all due respect I think you are focussing your lens in the wrong direction, like most of the media. While I agree that FEMA made errors and their response could be improved (particularly in coordinating *all* assets), the proper place to point your lens is at the local and state govts. For example:
- An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Improving the levee system around New Orleans has been a problem for at least a generation. That's all on the state and local government's plates.
- What about the city busses? The mayor could easily have mobilized busses before the storm and moved people out. As a tangent, I find this mayor long on talk (particlulary blame) and short on action.
- What about the national guard? The federal govt does not typically deploy troops into a state until the governor requests. It is the governor's job to call up the guard, as well to request help from neighboring states and the feds. The delay on the governor's part is practically criminal, in this regard.
So yes, we can play "let's browbeat bush" some more if you want, but I think a better perspective is to look locally first.
-jeff
P.S. Since this discussion is so politically charged - I didn't vote for Bush, and have very dim views of some of his policies. But I think it's important *in this case* for future generations to show the real failures at the local level, rather than playing politics and attacking the feds.
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Quote:Good God. $900 x 200 trucks x 7 days = $1.26 million. If they hadn't "miscommunicated," think of what that $1 million could have gone to.
Originally posted by SignyM:
FEMA ice truck convoy sent on twisting, weeklong route to hurricane storage depot
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
FEMA ice truck convoy sent on twisting, weeklong route to hurricane storage depotQuote:They'll get it right one of these days!
WOODY BAIRD Associated Press Writer
(AP) - MEMPHIS, Tennessee-About 200 (TWO HUNDRED!) tractor-trailer trucks with ice and water for victims of Hurricane Katrina took a convoluted, weeklong trip to a storage depot in Memphis, partly because of what the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers called "miscommunication."
http://news.findlaw.com/ap/o/51/09-13-2005/5c2d000aa3064d5d.html
Please don't think they give a shit.
Please read some more.
"No one went without water because of the mix-up, Anderson said.
"Our supply of ice and water is exceeding the demand right now," Anderson said. "The ice and water will not be wasted."
The 18-wheelers, under contract for up to $900 a day, are part of a relief operations that already has sent more than 5,300 trucks of ice and water to New Orleans and the Gulf Coast, Anderson said."
So they had 200 out of 5300+ trucks (less than 4%) that were re-routed, because their loads weren't needed where they were originally sent(for whatever reason). No one suffered any water or ice shortage due to this, and the rerouted water and ice will be used. I'd consider this not bad for an emergency situation. I wish I only got things wrong 4% of the time.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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