Major Spoiler and I'm calling Joss out
POSTED BY: fireflygal
UPDATED: Friday, October 14, 2005 18:37
VIEWED: 62576
PAGE 5 of 23
Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:Quote:
Originally posted by Stillshiny:
came across this today. Just some bits & pieces from the Sydney Q & A but may help shed some light.
Q> How did you decide who to kill?
A> “My Dungeon Master’s 20-sided dice” (uproarious laughter).
‘At first, I wasn’t going to kill anyone...” but he explained that if no-one got hurt then the story wouldn’t ring true for the newcomers. He also noted “You have resitrictions about who you can kill and still call it a happy ending.” He apparently tried different scenarios and reminisced that in a draft for Alien IV, he had a death for one of the characters in every act and then living in the finale. “I can’t worry about what I need or worry about a sequel...” he had to make this film the best it could possibly be.
Wash’s death “gave Zoe what she hadn’t had for the rest of the movie...” ie. an emotional arc and more than her just being the strong, dependable... (can’t remember the adjectives...) She was given shock and disbelief before “sublimating it for later when she can take it out on some Reavers.” “Everyone who isn’t Ron and Alan wins.”
He (Joss) noted that Alan works the most and was the first to get work after the series ended. Joss at this point began to get nervous that the cast was moving on and that his movie wasn’t going to happen.
Asked about whether we would ever find out about Book’s past. “Once more I mention the sequel...”
"We had ties that could not be broken, except by the passing of time. Like a rock. A broken time rock. And you're very special to me, my broken time rock people." - Nathan Fillion
Stillshiny's Shop - I'm thinkin we rose again
http://www.spreadshirt.com/shop.php?sid=4728
Listen to "The Signal" www.serenityfirefly.com
Serenity is coming. 9/30/05
Thanks StillShiny.I seem to have the why now and I feel betrayed even more because he killed the characters for the newbies! So THEY'D have a better movie. What about the fans from day 1? Guess we don't seem to count. Sure, he can do whatever he wants with his characters but I don't have to like it and I still don't believe it was a better movie because they died. Yes, it got the gut punch reaction he wanted. It was just great having to sit through 2 more showings with friends, knowing they'd be gut punched too and I couldn't do anything about it. Never said a word to anyone, kept it all in, just said the movie was an "E" ticket ride and it was. I hope the "newbies" appreciate what Joss did for them.
I aim to misbehave!
Firefly items:
For lapel pins and badge holder lanyards
e-mail FireflyGal1@hotmail.com
www.cafepress.com/fillies
www.cafepress.com/fireflyflan
Are you truly this blind?! How many hardcore, intense fans just posted in this thread saying they supported the action? Let's see...um...MOST OF THEM. So you're saying he didn't care about US?!
Let me try this again - he told his story the best and most powerful way he could. What else do you want him to do?
Let me ask you a question, straight up. Would you rather he write to fulfill himself, or your expectations?
You know what, I'm a hardcore, dedicated fan from Day 1. I LIKED the movie OVERALL, so don't get teetchy. I also don't CARE that everyone else in the 'verse supported the killing, which I know for a fact is not true, since I have seen it with people that hated the killing, course maybe they have a life and don't live to post on FFN. LIKE I SAID MAY BE ON THE LOSING SIDE OF THIS POST, STILL NOT CONVINCED IT'S THE WRONG ONE. You want to know the truth on your question? MY EXPECTATIONS, ain't gonna happen and it didn't happen but if YOU read his quote from the Aussie interview he originally wasn't going to kill anyone but then it wouldn't ring true for the NEWCOMERS, not the Browncoats but the NEW fans. And AGAIN, LIKE I SAID, Joss doesn't care what I think but I'm voicing my opinion BECAUSE I CAN.
I aim to m
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I was hurt. I was mad. I was sad.
I thought everyone was going to die.
And that's why he did it. When I watched the TV show, I never thought anyone was going to die. In fact, after the near scrapes with Kaylee in the pilot, Mal and Wash at Niska's Skyplex, and Book while they were unloading cattle, I had it in my head that no one was going to die. Not ever.
So he took away Wash and Book. I wouldn't have done it. If I felt I had to do it, I'd have done it differently. But you know what? No one would ever read or watch one of my stories, wide eyed and open mouthed, and wonder if anyone was going to get out alive.
As for pleasing newbies, I hope he does please them. I hope he pleases them a lot. Because as many of us fans as there are, there aren't enough of us to bring in sequels. Not by a long shot. We need the newbies to get what we want: Sequels.
So if Joss did two things… if he made me fear for characters I'd assumed were safe, and he turned up the realism for the newbies, I'm glad. All hail the Newbies and their millions of dollars of ticket sales. We need them so much.
I am much more put out by the fact that Mal got shot in the back by the Operative to zero effect. Jayne's remarkable recovery after being impaled by a rusty metal pole is also notable. These are things that made the film less real, and worked against Joss' other moments.
But, all in all, small complaints for a good film.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
if YOU read his quote from the Aussie interview he originally wasn't going to kill anyone but then it wouldn't ring true for the NEWCOMERS, not the Browncoats but the NEW fans.
Like I said in my previous post, I really don't think it would have rung true for me if no one had died. I appreciate you have a right to your opinion, but I really don't think accusations of Joss ignoring his fanbase, or tring to "get back" at Ron and Alan, have much credibility.
From this fan's perspective, at least, the deaths give the film more emotional resonance than a feel-good ending would have. They wouldn't be our BDHs if things went their way.
"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
if YOU read his quote from the Aussie interview he originally wasn't going to kill anyone but then it wouldn't ring true for the NEWCOMERS, not the Browncoats but the NEW fans.
Like I said in my previous post, I really don't think it would have rung true for me if no one had died. I appreciate you have a right to your opinion, but I really don't think accusations of Joss ignoring his fanbase, or tring to "get back" at Ron and Alan, have much credibility.
From this fan's perspective, at least, the deaths give the film more emotional resonance than a feel-good ending would have. They wouldn't be our BDHs if things went their way.
"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann
Yeah. This.
Fireflygal, you have the right to your opinion just like anyone else, I wasn't trying to dissuade you. I'm just saying you shouldn't 1) say Joss is ignoring or being unfair to the fanbase as a whole, because he isn't, and 2) accuse him of killing off characters that he loves just as much as you (probably more than you) for cheap or illegitimate reasons. If you didn't like it, fine. Not everyone likes everything. Doesn't mean Joss failed, or that he was being unfair or intentionally mean.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I, too, was disappointed with the deaths of Book and Wash.
Yes, they are Joss' characters are he can do whatever he gorram pleases with them, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.
I can understand wanting to add realism to the film for the sake of the newbies. However, having watched Serenity with a newbie, what struck us most was that he didn't provide enough of a background for Book (especially) or Wash to fully comprehend how devastating their deaths were. And they were *devastating* to the fans.(I actually had someone tell me after the viewing that I should refrain from making any big decisions for a week or two, as it takes a while for the shock to wear off.)
Yes, it makes a sort of sense for characters to die. But if the show had not been cancelled, it would not have happened it the *next* episode. And for some fans, waiting so long for another glimpse of people we had grown to love, that is probably where expectations were at - a longer story arc, covering the ideas that would have been shown had the series continued (especially since we had already been hearing rumors of a trilogy!)
I think one of the things that upset me the most was that here we finally had a chance to interact with characters we had longed for - and didn't get the same level of interaction we had become accustomed to. It didn't feel as well-rounded and character-oriented. And that was frustrating. Yes, it was action-packed, and believe me, I love action as much as the next martial arts fan, but it wasn't as fulfilling because I *do* care about these characters.
Book's death served a purpose, and I could fathom how that decision came to be. (Hearing Ron Glass speak about his time with this cast, though, I am truly saddened that it had to happen this way.) But I was still frustrated - he appeared as a side character - not a part of the crew, as the fans knew him to be. It leaves out such a huge part of the background story and makes Book appear to be dispensable. Knowing more than was shown, I felt that Book's death *was* enough to show that not everyone is always going to make it out alright.
Which brings me to Wash...
I am distraught about Wash's death, not just because he was a great guy with a goofy sense of humor and the ability to not be in the center of the action, but also becuase of his relationship with Zoe. Here, finally, is a depiction of a healthy, mature, adult relationship - marriage on screen that isn't derogatory or whiny, featuring characters over the age of 25. I am disappointed that I will not get to see more of what they could explore together. (Albeit rumors have already started that Zoe may be pregnant, and it is more drama-filled to have Zoe raise her child without Wash.)
To be honest, Wash's death distracted me from the rest of the film. I didn't believe everyone else was going to die. I didn't believe he was dead. Zoe's simple "He's not coming" left me worlds of ideas for how Wash would make it through. It wasn't until the funeral scene before I realized the truth in her statement - he's really not coming.
Upon watching the scene at the end between Mal and River, it appears that (if I'm not mistaken) the answer to the question of "Then who's going to fly the ship?" will be River. And as much as River is the ultimate enigma in this 'verse, it was hard for me to sit silently and watch the entire focus become River. (Nothing against Summer Glau, a truly incredible actress, or against Joss' creation, as I love the skewed perspective River has.) But for me, Firefly was about nine truly unforgettable characters, interacting in a way that spoke volumes to me. And Serenity, which I was dying to see, was about River, with other characters in a supporting or even dispensable role.
The challenge for me, is that here is a movie I have been waiting for, hoping for, dying to see. I want to grab all of my friends and go on opening night and watch it and be able to bounce enthusiastically, even ecstatically, that we have our characters back and clamor for the next movie (and the next, and the one after t
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by TenthCrewMember:
Sometimes I feel like I am the only one in the 'Verse who understands that part of what makes Joss and his writings what they are is the fact that, like in real life, there are not always happy endings and things often take unexpected turns.
Quote:
Originally posted by CallMeAth:
It hurt didn't it? It hurt a lot. Just like it was supposed to.
it was a realistic death. No last words and no sacrifice. Just like real life.
I, for one, am glad that Joss did it.
Nope, you're not alone.
"Invader's blood marches through my veins like giant radioactive rubber pants. The pants command me! Do not ignore my veins!"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
Great soapbox 10th CM, glad I incited you to step on up.
Hey thanks FFG! And for the record, I meant only by way of me being a fan, never said you (or anyone else) couldn't be a fan and question it. *I* question it, as I do most everything, but I still accept it for the reasons I stated.
BWAH!
TCM
The BIG DAMN LINK to the CAPTION TIGHTPANTS game!
You can play today!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=9360
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Avail yourself of my trade! I have original (meaning: designed by me!)
T-shirts, posters, mugs and more at
http://www.cafepress.com/10thcrew
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In or near Ohio? Join us!
http://p097.ezboard.com/bohiofireflyfans
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly-ohio
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I am sad for all those who feeled betrayed by Joss but Joss writes pain and anyone who has stuck with him through Buffy and Angel knows this and now Firefly fans know it too.
He never permits a happy love story (anyone expecting joy for Simon/Kaylee, Inara/Mal are going to be very disappointed in the long term). He never allows everybody to come out alive and unhurt. He never supplies a universally happy ending.
What he does to is make us laugh and cry and re-evaluate television, film and maybe even ourselves and society. Joss hurts but its a nice hurt. I hope all those people that feel let down or betrayed will come to love the pain that he gives because it comes with so many other wonderful things it really is worth it eventually. Remember, for Joss everything has consequences and after tragic and utterly depressing deaths it is these otherwise impossible consequences we can hold onto and gasp at with shock, disbelief, laughter and the odd 'hoorah'.
extremely dimensionally transcendental
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
FireflyGal, if you honestly feel that strongly, then I don't see why you would go see the film again. Because obviously this has colored your view of it and Joss.
But know that, as many others have pointed out, he does this for several reasons. He kills characters to break people's hearts, he does it to up the stakes, and he does it, usually, to propel a character arc that we may not see until the sequel (I for one, am extremely interested in seeing what place Zoe is in come the sequel, and what new developments will occur with her as a character, as a result of her dealing with losing Wash).
Also know, that it does pain him to do these things, but he does them because they make the story resonate, it gives it power, it sticks with you. He said in the past, that when he decided to kill the character of Tara on BtVS, he actually cried as he told the other writers. His characters are THAT close to him, but you can rant (and it is your right), just don't expect him to apologize. Many Tara fans got mad, and he explained himself, but he didn't apologize or "fix it."
And I understand that it hurts. It's supposed to. He did it for newbies AND us, though. I think his intention was to show newbies--who have seen countless action/sci fi films with no consequences--what kind of storyteller he is. That he has created a world where there are consequences, and people die, and that's a part of what makes "Serenity" different, and in most cases, better than what Hollywood churns out.
One last thing...eight people were entering a dangerous, life threatening situation--destroying their ship's ability to function, and with no means of escaping a larger, ruthless force (unlike, say, War Stories, where they could have fallen back and flown away).
So AT LEAST one person had to die, to make it at all realistic. And it raises the tension so much. Plus if nothing else ever came of it, it was worth it for me just to see Gina play Zoe's small moment of emotional breakdown right before Mal pulls her out of the way of the second harpoon. It was perfect.
If Joss hadn't killed Wash (and Book), he wouldn't be Joss. Besides, people would have died (maybe Wash and Book, maybe not) in the series eventually. Yet like the man says, we'll see them again...
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
To quote Nathan Fillion on the people who started the save wash campain-"those people just don't get it"
"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME