Is there a general anti-authoritarian feeling in the Whedonverses?
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Monday, September 12, 2005 19:54
VIEWED: 8893
PAGE 2 of 5
I reckon it’s more anti-establishment than anti-authoritarian (if I can make that pedantic distinction) 
… Sometimes people in authority are (mostly) good (Principal Wood, heck, what about Giles??) … It’s just faceless bureaucracy that’s bad … It’s all about the individual … even the Independents don’t come in for blanket approval, but we just happen to like some of the individuals therein …
I also like the dichotomy in all Joss' works between power corrupting, as you rightly say, but also power forcing responsibilities and decisions on people they’d rather not make… Both the Bufster, Angel and Mal come in for criticism for their leading styles and their decisions, but they effectively have no choice, as Mal says: “my boat is not the ruttin’ town hall”…
I think it creates fantastic emotional ties with any viewer, both sympathy and empathy and some superb gorram catharsis (who of us hasn’t been a fly in a spider’s web at one time or another, caught by circumstance and unable to make any substantive choice save a decision that’s bound to upset someone?…)
Anyway that was slightly off topic but I guess what I’m essentially saying is “yeah”!
***************************************
Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:
I reckon it’s more anti-establishment than anti-authoritarian
Ha! Similar posts at almost exactly the same time.
Question though, Zoot. Do you think there's a danger that Joss's political vision ends up being actually rather anti-democratic? Generally he seems to favour benign dictators rather than democratic process.
Carbonel
P.S. If I'd known that today was going to feature the phrase 'superb gorram catharsis' I think I would have got out of bed with more of a spring.
"The cat talks?"
"The cat never shuts up."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Carbonel:
P.S. If I'd known that today was going to feature the phrase 'superb gorram catharsis' I think I would have got out of bed with more of a spring.
"The cat talks?"
"The cat never shuts up."
Aw bless, thanks Carbonel! And may I just take this moment to say that the Kingdom of Carbonel was one of my favourite books growing up ...
In answer to your question, depends what you mean by “democratic” or rather it doesn’t ‘cos I think the answer is “yes”, I do think there’s a danger that Joss’ vision is fundamentally anti-democratic when it comes down to it …
To explain:
(a) if you mean “democratic” as in not republican, then he does indeed seem to be in favour of “small” government which, let’s face it, (and okay, I’m not American, so I may be wrong) seems to be the trumpet call of the Republican party …
(b) if you mean “democratic” as opposed to “oligarchic” or “tyrannous”, then it may be a question of that old chestnut – is bad government by one person better than bad government by many, as less people are tainted by the “sin”?… I personally think that Joss’ extreme individualism coupled with the theme, which both Buffy and Firefly imply, of personal ability and its commensurate responsibilities, leads to an oligarchy of talent (if not a tyranny) where everyone finds their level according to their abilities and looks up to the more able and down on the less … and, remember, certainly Plato thought that not all tyrannies were bad – why else did he try to create the tyrant Dionysus in Syracuse in his own image?? And Plato’s perfect Republic is governed by benign philosopher-kings … (gosh, really veered off on tangent now) …
I think there’s a fundamental conflict in Joss’ work between an almost teenage desire for individuality and responsibility for self-government and the principal that everyone should live in an ordered society and look after each other – ‘cos if you’re looking out solely for yourself and the preservation of your own psyche, then other people are going to inevitably get trodden on …
Perhaps Joss is just way more optimistic about human nature than me. I think he thinks that, left to their own devices, the majority of people are fundamentally altruistic, when I think just the opposite (c.f. New Orleans) … or maybe he doesn’t… But I think his work is generally hopeful (masquerading as hopeless) …
A good example is the “lovely little community of kidnappers” in “Safe”. So, they kidnap a few professionals and they’re gonna burn River as a witch, but they’re not all bad. They have banded together to look after each other (but how much of this is philanthropy and how much self preservation, we’ll never know) and they’ve taken in and looked after the little girl with no mother, though it will be many years before she’s a productive member of society, as Doralee says: “[it’s a] place where folks take care of each other.”
I guess what I may be saying is, like real life, Mr Whedon’s ‘Verse is very complex and ruttin’ hard to unravel and that makes it mighty!!
***************************************
Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:
(a) if you mean “democratic” as in not republican, then he does indeed seem to be in favour of “small” government which, let’s face it, (and okay, I’m not American, so I may be wrong) seems to be the trumpet call of the Republican party ….
I had intended 'democratic' as opposed to 'oligarchic', but the Democratic versus Republican question opens interesting questions. In many questions Joss would be on the Democratic side, I think (e.g. women's rights, homesexuality). But there's definitely a strong streak of laissez faire, small-government conservatism there too. In particular I'm thinking of the smuggling issue - in Firefly smuggling things past trade restrictions is 'good' crime. I'm not American either so I'm not able to pick up on all the nuances, but I'd be interested to know how Americans understand Joss's politics. The recent debates on the 'real world' board about Katrina seem to suggest that it's possible to be passionately either Republican or Democratic and still admire Joss.
Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:
I think there’s a fundamental conflict in Joss’ work between an almost teenage desire for individuality and responsibility for self-government and the principal that everyone should live in an ordered society and look after each other – ‘cos if you’re looking out solely for yourself and the preservation of your own psyche, then other people are going to inevitably get trodden on …
I absolutely agree, but I'd never really thought of it as 'teenage' before. Certainly there's a strong streak of idealism in the way that Joss presents Mal - a hollow man in the sense that he's lost faith and meaning, but he still knows right from wrong (wouldn't you have just loved to meet his mother?)
Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:
A good example is the “lovely little community of kidnappers” in “Safe”. So, they kidnap a few professionals and they’re gonna burn River as a witch, but they’re not all bad. They have banded together to look after each other (but how much of this is philanthropy and how much self preservation, we’ll never know) and they’ve taken in and looked after the little girl with no mother, though it will be many years before she’s a productive member of society, as Doralee says: “[it’s a] place where folks take care of each other.”
I don't know about this - I'd read the community in 'Safe' as much more negative. I agree that the community was idealised in some ways, but I also thought the religious side was a real problem. If you need a doctor to keep your community alive then maybe it's OK to kidnap one. But dressing that up as 'God will provide' is dangerously self-delusory (and before you know where you are you'll be burning mentally unstable women). Again it seems to come down to one of Joss's major themes - start believing in abstract entities (God, the government) and you'll stop recognising human agency and taking responsibility for your own actions.
Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:
I guess what I may be saying is, like real life, Mr Whedon’s ‘Verse is very complex and ruttin’ hard to unravel and that makes it mighty!!
I'll drink to that! When I've found all the answers then I'll start to criticising Joss rather than just commenting on him.
Carbonel
P.S. Glad you like and recognise where my name comes from. I re-read the books recently and they're still pretty good. Talking cats are just generally shiny (unless they're on TV shows called Sabrina).
"The cat talks?"
"The cat never shuts up."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Yeah! Talking cats rule!!
By “teenage” I mean that it’s a very sort of high school/ university thing to be so belligerently anti-establishment … you tend to get over it and mellow a bit and begin to think speed limits and no smoking laws are reasonably ok later in life …
I too would love to know how American Browncoats see Joss on the Republican/Democrat line - I suspect both camps can make a good case for claiming Joss as their own ... Although ardent Republicans seem to be in the minority on this board …
I tend to think of Joss, or at least the part of him we see reflected through the prism that is Firefly, as less democrat or republican, but more inheritor of the pioneer spirit of the first settlers - all “freedom to worship” and “freedom to kill each other if that’s what we fancy” … I guess the facet of Joss viewed through Buffy is slightly different – that’s more the “with great gifts comes great responsibility” line …
***************************************
Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Americans do have more than 2 parties, you know.
Originally posted by Zoot:
I too would love to know how American Browncoats see Joss on the Republican/Democrat line...I tend to think of Joss, or at least the part of him we see reflected through the prism that is Firefly, as less democrat or republican, but more inheritor of the pioneer spirit of the first settlers - all “freedom to worship” and “freedom to kill each other if that’s what we fancy” …
There is a reason Libertarians (the pioneer spirit folks) are big damn fans of Firefly and identify greatly with the Browncoat rebels.I see Joss as someone who doesn't like to paint broad strokes of good and evil over any ideology, but sees pros and cons and shades of gray in all approaches. I think the worlds he creates celebrates, for the most part, socially conscientious individualism, but even that has a price.
I don't think he is "undemocratic" as in supportive of benevolent dictatorships. Rather, I think he likes decisive, hard-ass leadership that is not swayed by popularity polls and vote courtships, in contrast to the "leadership" Americans are used to. His heroes, Buffy, Angel, and Mal are people who make hard, unpopular decisions to survive and save lives, while knowing full well their own flaws and not claiming any categorical moral highground in doing so.
I think the following quotation about the BDM says it all. It is from a pamphlet I got at a Serenity screaning.
Quote:
Joss Whedon:
For all of them it's about freedom. It's about how much you can take, how much you can have taken from you, both personally and ideologically, before you have to turn around and fight.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I don't think he is "undemocratic" as in supportive of benevolent dictatorships. Rather, I think he likes decisive, hard-ass leadership that is not swayed by popularity polls and vote courtships, in contrast to the "leadership" Americans are used to. His heroes, Buffy, Angel, and Mal are people who make hard, unpopular decisions to survive and save lives, while knowing full well their own flaws and not claiming any categorical moral highground in doing so.
I dunno, I find the idea of hard-ass leadership a bit scary as it smacks of dogmatism and intransigence …
But I think you’re right, only I do like the fact that it’s not quite that simple in the Whedon Verse – we aren’t always encouraged to completely and unquestioningly side with the “ruler”. We‘re never encouraged (especially with Buffy) to implicitly believe the leader is in the right …
It’s oh so much greyer than that – oftentimes I find myself (and I think we’re supposed to) rather disliking the “hero” e.g. when Mal threatens to space River and Simon in the pilot and I think we’re supposed to side with Book when he says “that’d be murder” …
But, as Mal put it “way it is, is the way it is” and the beauty of Whedon is putting flawed people in positions of responsibility and watching them f*ck up …
***************************************
Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Zoot:
I too would love to know how American Browncoats see Joss on the Republican/Democrat line - I suspect both camps can make a good case for claiming Joss as their own ... Although ardent Republicans seem to be in the minority on this board …
Canttakesky mentioned it already, but I thought I'd say a bit as well. The sides taken in the Democrat/Republican battle are occasionally somewhat arbitrary (God knows there are logical inconsistencies withing each so-called idealogical framework), but people in America just kind of pick the side they mostly agree with and that's their team. The ideals of Libertarianism can be found in different ways in both parties - but I don't want to start listing things and turn this into a discussion of hot-button issues. Suffice to say you'll find Libertarians on both sides of the isle.
I am struggling to recall a quote from Heinlein in Stranger - and am complete unable to remember. He describes his home as a family, and as such is anarchy until such time as he gives an order. Or something. I know there are other Heinlein fans on the board, so perhaps one of them would be able to remember it better. But the sentiment is there, and is applicable to Joss shows -- since all of them, he has stated, are about created family.
I think I started this post with a point, but now I'm just rambling.
"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:
But the sentiment is there, and is applicable to Joss shows -- since all of them, he has stated, are about created family.
I guess a lot could be made (and probably already has been) about Joss’ fixation with acquired families rather than genetic ones … the funny thing is you still get that feeling of “god, I hate these gorram people, but I’m stuck with them ‘cos their my family” which you get with genetic families … so go figure ...
***************************************
Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:
I don't think he is "undemocratic" as in supportive of benevolent dictatorships. Rather, I think he likes decisive, hard-ass leadership that is not swayed by popularity polls and vote courtships
Oh I absolutely agree, although I would also argue that the line between 'benevolent dictatorship' and 'decisive, hard-ass leadership' sometimes gets a little fuzzy. Also, things are complicated by the fact that on the one hand strong leadership is important, but on the other hand so is individual freedom and sometimes those things come into conflict.
I was just reading a Joss interview from a while back where he talks about the making of the movie of Buffy, when the director started to take it in directions he didn't like:
Quote:
So I didn't agree with the way the movie was going, but I also kept my mouth shut because you respect the director. You do that. You respect the person above you, and you make suggestions and you do your best. You know? But you don't ever disrupt the chain of command. You have to have faith in the person who's running it or things will fall apart.
This is of course not quite true - in the Jossverse sometimes you do have to disrupt the chain of command when lives are at stake - Mal does it in some of the flashback scenes, for example, and Riley does it in series 4 of Buffy.
I'm not quite sure what my point is here - in Joss's philosophy you have a moral responsibility to follow the authorised chain of command, but also to resist that command when you know it's dangerously wrong? I'm not sure how that maps onto Libertarian ideology (which, as a non-American, I now realise I don't know much about but I'm very interested).
Carbonel
P.S. Also the word 'anarchy' keeps popping to my head from Riley's 'No sir, I'm an anarchist.' line. I've been trying to ignore it, but now it's found its way into the post.
"The cat talks?"
"The cat never shuts up."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME