The culpability at the state and federal levels in the New Orleans assistance debacle (cont.)

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Monday, January 27, 2025 15:27
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PERFESSERGEE

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 8:23 AM

Folks, I’ve been awfully busy this week and haven’t been keeping up with the FFF.net threads (we just started our fall semester, and the first week is always a steep climb). I just caught up with this latest thought-child of Chrisisall, have read both threads in their entirety, and I’d like to offer a few (well, a bunch of) comments. First, a disclaimer – I’ve spent the last week with steam coming out of my ears about the response to Katrina. It seems to me that virtually everyone involved screwed up on this. From the President to some of the residents of NO itself. But, there are many, many degrees of culpability, and equally many degrees of duty to act in the public interest. And the higher the degree of duty, the higher the level of accountability to which they should be held, so when heads roll (and many should in this instance) those who hold the authority and the purse strings should be first to lay their heads on the block. But I’ll come back to that in my next post.

First, I want to indulge in a free speech moment. I’ve argued rather vehemently on these RWED boards that if you won’t defend the speech rights of those with whom you most strongly disagree, then you don’t really believe in free speech. Personally, I believe in free speech, so I’m going to do exactly that. In the first part of this pair of threads, a number of folk heaped very strong personal insult on some of those who have defended the administration’s role in this devastating fiasco, in particular Andrew Lynch and Finn macCumhal, and went so far as to demand that they shut up and leave these boards. Folks, this is wrong. Heaven only knows that I personally disagree with much of what they post, and I’ve personally gone so far as to strongly criticize both of their reasoning and their use of evidence. But their speech is just as legitimate as anyone’s who posts on these boards, including my own. That doesn’t mean that it’s “correct”, it means that they have every right to express it. Challenge their reasoning and the way they view evidence as strongly as you like, but not their right to speak. If they don't have the right, then neither do you.

(More on the Katrina specifics in my next post)

perfessergee

PERFESSERGEE

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 10:21 AM

A couple of additional thoughts on the Katrina debate:

Arguments that Katrina and its effects were not predictable (implying that nobody could really have prepared) are so ludicrously absurd as to invoke the Goebels principle of The Big Lie. Keep telling it long and loud enough and the gullible public will eventually believe it. Not only the effects, but the likelihood were supposedly planned for by FEMA in early 2001 – pre 9/11. But then FEMA was gutted; funny thing that, trashing a federal agency that had learned how to be successful. Makes you wonder who’s watch the “successful” and the “gutting (= revocation of funding and authority)” occurred under. Hint: they were different administrations based in different political parties. And then there’s this issue of satellite imagery. Any marginally-educated person with a computer could watch the approach of Katrina, pretty much in real time, and we are supposed to believe that the world’s only superpower, a technological behemoth, couldn’t figure out at least approximately where Katrina would land and what would happen. If you can believe this, then please contact me, because I have a marvelous investment opportunity in a bridge that will make you rich…… Well, perhaps somebody dropped the ball. We’re faced with a death toll that will likely at least match 9/11 (if we’re lucky enough that it doesn’t far exceed 9/11), and an economic hit that will almost certainly make 9/11 look like breaking into a piggy bank. Somebody clearly dropped the ball. The question, then, is “who was in a position of authority and responsibility”? Well, the Dept. of Homeland Security, a cabinet-level, Executive Branch agency, has asserted command. So where does the buck stop? Ye gods it’s embarrassing to see the administration of the most powerful government on the earth looking like such incompetents. But incompetence is as incompetence does………One can only hope that those who truly have the authority are held accountable. In the ballot box.

Arguments that NO and the state should have done more to shore up levees are completely misinformed, and only serve to divert attention and culpability from where it belongs. Navigable waterways are constitutionally the exclusive province of the federal government. US law places that authority in the hands of the Army Corps of Engineers, which has repeatedly requested funding to shore up the levee system, only to see those requests ignored or grossly underfunded. Not only did the state and local authorities not have the money, but even if they’d had all the riches of Croesus, they couldn’t have done diddly without federal permits. Federal law controls every aspect of the Mississippi River and its tributaries and wetlands. So who bears the responsibility? I hope it’s obvious.

I’ve got more, but it’s late……..

perfessergee

GEEZER

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 12:58 PM

Rue & SignyM

I do think that bottled water is easier to distribute than water from a few centralized taps.

I really do believe that it is logistically impossible to completely evacuate everyone from a very large area with a large population. Airports and roads have only so much capacity. People still have to get to loading points. Everything is not going to go perfectly. Mistakes will happen.

I don't doubt that response could have been better, but things could have always been done better, in hindsight.

These aren't political opinions, they're just my take on the practical matters that have occurred around the Katrina disaster.

And I'm quite happy with my soul, thanks very much. I do what I can for folks and encourage others to do so as well. When things are under control and folks aren't on rooftops any more I won't mind trying to figure out how to do a better job in future.

So hate me all you want, guys. You seem to get so much pleasure from it, and it doesn't cost me anything.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

HERO

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 3:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:

The local authorities let people down, FEMA has taken over authority which they failed to execute, and people were ignored to death for days before anyone listened....

Seems that everyone, except for most of those doing the work, are pointing fingers at their traditional political enemies and saying "its your fault". I think they are all correct (except the crazy people who think we should have fixed the levy or lowered fossil fuel emmissions, yes we should have, but we didn't thats policy and democracy at work).

The Mayor failed to take the proper steps before the storm to get as many people out as possible. Thousands could have been bused out using city and school buses Saturday and Sunday, but the Mayor didn't heed calls to evacuate until a personal appeal was made by President Bush and then it was too late. He also made the bad (but understandable) choices on police deployment that allowed the violence to get out of control and disrupt the relief effort.

The Governor failed to control the situation after the fact. All of her preplanning seemed to be correct but in the hours following the storm she seemed completely unable to function or deal with the crisis. In her defense it was a really big crisis, but thats why they pay her the big bucks.

FEMA failed because despite all their planning they were unable to function in an effective manner for days after the storm. They had pre-positioned supplies and oodles of trained personel and equipment, but were so fouled up in mid and upper management that the job just wasn't being done.

Congress failed because they didn't get back into town till Friday. Bush could not use the military to take direct control of the situation because of the various laws against that sort of thing (Posse Comitatus) and what not. As soon as he got the authority he sent an Iraqi war veteran Lt. General down there who managed to kick ass on the relief effort and within 24 hours they had it in hand.

The News media failed because they treated this as a non-story till it was too late. While it got the attention it deserved on Cable, this event was bigger then 9/11 but lacked the continuous round the clock coverage of that event on regular network TV. Thus the magnatude of the disaster was slow to come to the awareness of the American people. There should have been live coverage from Monday afternoon until Friday evening's concert. But come on, they didn't even cancel the Saints game.

The levees failed because they were not big enough or strong enough for job they were asked to do. This falls on the Corps of Engineers, the City of New Orleans, the State of Louisiana, and the federal government, but its fifty years worth of decisions so that dilutes the overall blame to everyone who has ever visited Mardi Gras in the last fifty years.

Girls Gone Wild is to blame because it painted New Orleans as a paradise of parties and boobies instead of the City at risk it was, if something happens to Cancun then these people should be jailed.

President Clinton is to blame for not fixing the levies in 1993, 1995, 1996, 1999, or 2000 and for the failure to ratify the Kyoto Accords which failed 98-0 (the last time the Senate actually agreed on anything) because he negotiated such a lousy treaty.

President Bush is to blame for not fixing the levies in 2001 or 2002. I applaud him for deciding to fix them in 2006, leaves hope for the future. He is also to blame for the failure of FEMA noted above. His culpability here is limited to uninspired choices to head Homeland Security. That post needs a man (or woman) of action and vision (like Guiliani) not another bureaucrat.

The American people are to blame because this is a democracy and the buck really stops here.

So as you can see, it really comes down to the Commies. No Commies and the levees get raised in the '50s.

Wow, somehow I feel better.

H

EMBERS

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 3:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
President Bush is to blame for ... his ... uninspired choices to head Homeland Security. That post needs a man (or woman) of action and vision (like Guiliani) not another bureaucrat.

I vote for Guiliani as head of FEMA!
that is an inspired choice.
In the New Yorker they commented that on 9/11 it became clear that sometimes it is a good thing to have an anal control freak as a Mayor...
I'm sure he would show the same focused leadership on a national level....

let's write our Senators & Congressman! (broken record here)

BEOWULF

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 4:54 PM

Here's my question while the Big Wheel of Blame spins 'round and 'round: What are you going to do?

I mean, assuming you're not directly dealing with the Gulf Coast disaster right now there doesn't seem to be any reason to wait. NOW is the time to bring up disaster preparedness in you next local community organization or governmental body's meeting. NOW is the time to figure out just how you and your neighbors can get out if they have to. NOW is the time to figure out which of your neighbors might need your help if something happens.

We can point at a lot of people and agencies who should have done something different - something better. That's always going to be true. It will never change the fact that you are ultimately responsible for yourself. And if you can help someone else, you should.

Sure, call them to task for what they did wrong - but don't think that leaves you off the hook.

HKCAVALIER

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 4:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by embers:

The local authorities let people down, FEMA has taken over authority which they failed to execute, and people were ignored to death for days before anyone listened....

Seems that everyone, except for most of those doing the work, are pointing fingers at their traditional political enemies and saying "its your fault".

Sounds nice, but by that measure then SignyM, one of the most vocal left-leaning participants on this board, would be an anarchist. Given their performance thus far, I don't think throwing Bush, Chertoff and Brown in jail immediately would interfer much with the relief effort either.

Tradition's got very little to do with the enemies this administration has made. This presidency has brought out the rage in a whole lot of human beings who haven't made the repubican party their enemy until it was taken over by this crowd. Everyone here would agree that this administration and its policies are unprecidented in any number of ways.

On the other hand, Carl Rove and others have called for a "perminent majority." For this administration the death of liberalism, the end of the loyal opposition is the avowed goal. Cheney's been working on the project for 30 years. The rich white men, and their todies, who hold power have made the poor their unofficial but very traditional enemy since the invention of the wheel. Our president's guitar playing escapade last week is at least as old as Nero.

And Hero, this country is a democracy the whole year round, not just every 4 years in November. If you don't understand how holding elected officials to account for their actions and inactions[!] is essential to the democratic process, you should take an elementary civics course.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

HERO

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 6:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf:
Here's my question while the Big Wheel of Blame spins 'round and 'round: What are you going to do?.

1. Last week I organized an effort to send a truck load of relief supplies south, including the truck (which was a surplus industrial dump truck we got from a DUI), as I understand it, it is now the property of the City of Gulfport.

2. Saturday I organized and ran a large flea market at my church, we donated the proceeds to Methodist Katrinia relief, then took up an offering and doubled our intial donation.

3. Sunday I offered prayers in my church for the victims of Katrina, the nation, and the Chief Justice's family.

4. Today I am making an effort to get my City to convert an elementary school (shut down last spring because of school budget issues) into a long or mid-term shelter for I hope 200 displaced persons.

How bout you?

H

HERO

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 6:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Seems that everyone, except for most of those doing the work, are pointing fingers at their traditional political enemies and saying "its your fault".

Tradition's got very little to do with the enemies this administration has made. This presidency has brought out the rage in a whole lot of human beings who haven't made the repubican party their enemy until it was taken over by this crowd.

On the other hand, Carl Rove and others have called for a "perminent majority."

For this administration the death of liberalism, the end of the loyal opposition is the avowed goal.

Cheney's been working on the project for 30 years.

The rich white men, and their todies, who hold power have made the poor their unofficial but very traditional enemy since the invention of the wheel.

You completely disagree with me and yet went to great pains proving my point. Thanks. Maybe if your tirades had lashed out in another direction now, or in the past, you might make the argument work for you.

As it is I see liberals blaming conservatives, conservatives blaming liberals, Democrats blaming the President, the administration blaming Democrats, the poor blaming the rich, and the rich blaming the poor. Its the same as it was before the storm. Seems to me fault lies with all of us so there's no need to hold the political leaders accountable for our mutual failure of vision. We can hold them accountable for what they do now, not what we all failed to do then.

All we need now is some way for me to blame France. Hmm...they sold us Louisiana knowing that it might flood...damn them, damn them all.

H

HKCAVALIER

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 8:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Seems to me fault lies with all of us so there's no need to hold the political leaders accountable for our mutual failure of vision.

WTF?

Hero, your position has become so morally elastic, so utterly opportunistic in its catch-phrases and innuendo that now you're talking just like an ultra-liberal. "It's all our fault! Society is to blame! Can't you see, he can't help it! We've all made Bush the way he is!" LOL ROTFL Classic!

Next thing you know, Rove will come out with an ad showing sad faced photos of Bush and his cabinet, with the voice over, "Judge not, lest ye be judged. Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. C'mon, can't we all just...get along?" ROTFL It could happen!

Any administration in a democracy must be held accountable for its actions. This is not up for debate. You know this, you...you...you silly person! LOL The way you talk, we don't so much have a democracy, as a dictatorship with term limits. My traditional enemies, btw, are the traditional enemies of democracy--authoritarianism, bigotry and those who would silence the free press no matter who they are.

Hero, you may be full of beans on a regular basis but you always come thru with the funny. Chrisisall, watch your back!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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