Problems with 2nd Caleb episode

POSTED BY: Succatash
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 7, 2003 06:05
VIEWED: 10647
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NICOLA

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 11:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Novagrass:

And going on a tangent... I've always had a theory that the hero in Buffy has never really been Buffy herself, but that it has been divided between the three main characters, Buffy, Xander and Willow... each representing a part of a hero, and becoming a whole only when assembled.

And Giles.

Of course you are right. Check out the episode "Primaval" when the four Scoobys cast a spell to share their strongest aspects in order to defeat Adam.

Xander = heart/Animus
Willow = spirit/Spiritus
Giles = mind/Sophus
Buffy = hand/Manus

And Buffy's line at the end of her battle with Adam (all four voices combined):

"You could never hope to grasp the source of our power."

This friendship theme is emphasised again the episode where the Scooby's all fall asleep and have a dream of the First Slayer.

Quote:
I think that this story arc is to establish Buffy as a hero in her own right... which may be interesting. But yeah... major digression.

Perhaps this season is to be Buffy's independance day? No, I don't think so.

Remember, the idea of the slayer without the support of her friends has been explored more than once before and it always comes back to the knowledge that the slayer is stronger with the Scooby's than without.

Nicola Wood

==================================================
Passionate ideologues are incurious by nature and have no time for obstructive details.

SUCCATASH

Thursday, May 1, 2003 12:01 AM

Novagrass wrote:
"Geez, a bit confrontational, aren't we?"

Sorry, if I sounded too confrontational, I just didn't want to be misunderstood.

SUCCATASH

Thursday, May 1, 2003 12:16 AM

Can anyone help me with my question?

GINOBIFFARONI wrote:
"The demon guys name is Clem. He was introduced as a friend of Spikes last season, he was used as an element of comic relief."

So it this demon just driving around in a car, and no one notices he is not human? Or is he invisible to regular people?

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS

Thursday, May 1, 2003 12:55 AM

Clem's been around normal folks a few times, most notably at Xander and Anya's not-quite wedding. He was explained away to the Harrises as part of Anya's "circus" family. I suspect on the most recent episode everyone was simply absorbed with getting the hell out of Sunnydale and none too concerned with who was in the car next to them.

For awhile now BTVS has indicated that people in Sunnydale have some idea that something is not quite right in town, but tend to look the other way. My favorite example is third season, the prom episode where Buffy is given the "Class Protector" award. There were numerous shout outs about oddities people had witnessed but kept to themselves.

SUCCATASH

Thursday, May 1, 2003 1:49 AM

Oh, okay. Thanks for the tip.

CORPRUGA

Thursday, May 1, 2003 3:10 AM

The simultaneous kicking out seemed a bit sudden to me, too, but what really baffled me about this episode was why Buffy kept pushing the issue after everyone made it clear they didn't want to go back to the vinyard. Has she suddenly come to the conclusion that since she's the Slayer, her vote counts more than everyone else's put together? Did she want to visit Caleb so badly that she couldn't take the time to ask her friends' opinions and come up with a plan somewhat more sophisticated than "We're going back!"? She should be getting the impression, after their first encounter with Caleb, that perhaps her army resents being sent into fatal situations without fully-formed strategies or any real reason. So, to sum up, I'm a little surprised that they all kicked her out, but I hope she learns from it and perhaps later gives her friends some sort of voice in deciding what happens.

"It's a thingie! A fiendish thingie!"--George Harrison, Help!

SUCCATASH

Thursday, May 1, 2003 3:27 AM

I agree with you, she should have backed down. A wise leader listens to the followers.

I think the answer to your "Why" question is simply because the whole situation was a bit forced.

Greenberg sacrificed the integrity of the characters in order to achieve a plot objective, which was to completely alienate Buffy.

I think this is a case of the end not justifying the means.

DRAGONWINE

Thursday, May 1, 2003 3:44 AM

Personally I think Buffy deliberately did what she did. The issue was forced because she forced it. She pushed till they pushed her out. She knew Caleb wanted them all to come back to the vineyard, just another trap. This way she goes on alone as she was meant, and she does not need to worry about getting anyone killed. No excess weight on her shoulders and she can go all out. She knew what she was doing and got the response she knew was necessary, but not what she truly wanted. I'm sure she would have preferred it some other way, but this is what had to be. And when will they figure out that when Buffy dies a new Slayer won't be called. A new Slayer will be called when Faith dies.

SUCCATASH

Thursday, May 1, 2003 3:54 AM

Then why did she act surprised and start crying? Was she just pretending?

I can understand her tears being real, with mixed emotions of leaving and all, but are you suggesting she acted surprised in order to save their lives?

Good thought.

MERLINDREA

Thursday, May 1, 2003 10:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dragonwine:
Personally I think Buffy deliberately did what she did. The issue was forced because she forced it. She pushed till they pushed her out. She knew Caleb wanted them all to come back to the vineyard, just another trap. This way she goes on alone as she was meant, and she does not need to worry about getting anyone killed. No excess weight on her shoulders and she can go all out. She knew what she was doing and got the response she knew was necessary, but not what she truly wanted. I'm sure she would have preferred it some other way, but this is what had to be.

Dragonwine, this is a great idea - that way the whole scene would make much more sense. Even the line which bothered me most "last time was no fun" - if she said it deliberately, to be thrown out, that would be so much better.

It would also close the circle somewhat, because in the very first episodes, Buffy wanted to fight alone to keep her friends safe, but her friends didn't let her. Now, if she would tell them "I need to fight alone", they wouldn't let her either, so she chooses a fight to get them off her.

The tears don't have to be fake. Even if you plan something like this, the moment your friends turn on you is still very very hurtful.

So bottomline, I really hope you are right! Otherwise I would rate that episode as exceptional weak, because, as Succatash had said, the writers sacrificed the character integrity to get the story along.

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